Venezuelan opposition march

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence


Ahem. Did I even suggest raising the ship? Or trying to salvage it? No. But the Spanish government didn't even show up at the disaster area for like 2 weeks at least after it had happened. They didn't even have trained specialists working in the coasts that were hit. They didn't do ANYTHING. For crying out loud, they had to be bailed out by FRANCE.

For crying out loud, several other countries caused logistical problems. And for crying out loud, my country was the first to deploy its navy. Within days, not two weeks.

Because, to begin with, I can do nothing. Secondly, Argentina does not have a massive mining industry and minerals are not barricaded against in the US and the EU, which I can't say the same for agricultural goods.

That is a problem. And come you little rebel, go do something.

And what I did say is that Chile's economy was destroyed in 1990. Nineteen-ninety in case you're reading numbers wrong. That's just when Pinocheat was ready to hand power over to Aylwin AFAIK. And poverty, screwed up balances and the like were an important problem.

Chile's economy was not destroyed in 1990. GDP growth was about 5% then. The thing about Chile is the public debt is very low, unlike Argentina (which exceeds $125 billion US).

[Dr. Nick]

And for crying out loud, my country was the first to deploy its navy.

And so the oil slick pointed at the Spanish navy, laughed and then asked if that's all they had to stop it from destroying the ecosystem.

That is a problem. And come you little rebel, go do something

Maybe I'll order an AK-47 off Ebay... but I don't have an international credit card, can I borrow yours?

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Awrence
And so the oil slick pointed at the Spanish navy, laughed and then asked if that's all they had to stop it from destroying the ecosystem.

Ask the flagship country why they do not double hull their ships? Ask them why they keep 25+ year old ships in service. The ship wasn't spanish.

Maybe I'll order an AK-47 off Ebay... but I don't have an international credit card, can I borrow yours?

I don't think so. I only do dealings with right-wing paramilitaries. J/K

[El León]

Elaw, ya dejálo, ché. Y tu estate quieto, Giancarlo.

Sorry about the Spanish, this is a globalized world.

Venezuela anyone? The judicial system in Vene has ordered PDVSA workers back to their jobs... anyone know more?

[Dr. Nick]

Ta bien, guey.

[Lawrence of Arabia]

Reagan, a neo-classisist? lol:
Reagan was a voodoo economist through and through.
He used tax cuts to stimulate the economy. (mostly for rich.) This assumes trickle down effect and assumed an MPC which is very much skewed. (100% voodoo) It is logical to assume the the richer you are the more you are going to spend, but Reagan's econ minsters assumed an MPC which was very skewed.
'By decreasing taxes by say 3% for poor and 7% for the rich, we will actually stimulate the economy and will bring in MORE then before.' Bull. Maybe if the taxes were at 80% and then got decreased to 30% you'd see a change in AS, but from 40% to 33% won't shift the curve that much iisao.

[Giancarlo]

No, his tax cuts were across the board. Yes, with the his economics the economy was stimulated. Take a look at the laffer curve in economics, the lower tax rates are the higher tax revenues would be. Any other reasoning is false. Supply sided economics is the best system that will work, and any socialist system where people are taxed to death will not work ultimately.

Also I am providing a source published by CATO:

http://www.cato.org/pubs/pas/pa-261.html

Shocking isn't it? To be proved completely wrong.

Awrence, maybe we should have a meeting with all the Argentine posters, and me in let say that Kansas restaurant?

[Agathon]

Well we should all believe the Cato institute - a think tank of right wing sophists, who only get paid if they come up with the "right" results. I'm still waiting for that argument, Fez. The argument that somehow justifies fascist tyranny. A child's graph from corrupt "intellectuals" is not enough - let's see some argument of your own.

As for trickle down economics, the easiest thing to say about it is that it doesn't work. A mixed economy is best, with a welfare system for the poor - that is why there is no real poverty in my country and almost no homelessness. None of this is due to anything other than democracy - that's what people wanted, so they voted for it.

It is unfair to criticise the Allende government, which didn't really have the chance to put its plans into practice unmolested - like the Arbenz government or the Sandanistas - funny that.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

To get beck to the Venezuelan topic

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14809

U.S. Intervening Against Democracy in Venezuela

By Mark Weisbrot, AlterNet
December 18, 2002

CARACAS – "Where are they getting their money?" asks historian Samuel Moncada, as the television displays one opposition commercial after another. Moncada is chair of the history department at Central University of Venezuela in Caracas. We are sitting in one of the few restaurants that is open in the eastern, wealthier part of Caracas.


For two weeks during this country's business-led strike, the privately owned stations that dominate Venezuelan television have been running opposition "infomercials" instead of advertisements, in addition to what is often non-stop coverage of opposition protests.


"I am sure there is money from abroad," asserts Moncada. It's a good guess: Prior to the coup on April 11, the U.S. National Endowment for Democracy stepped up its funding to opposition groups, including money funneled through the International Republican Institute. The latter's funding multiplied more than sixfold, to $340,000 in 2001.


But if history is any guide, overt funding from Washington will turn out to be the tip of the iceberg. This was the case in Haiti, Nicaragua, Chile and other countries where Washington has sought "regime change" because our leaders didn't agree with the voters' choice at the polls. (In fact, Washington is currently aiding efforts to oust President Aristide in Haiti – for the second time). In these episodes, which extended into the 1990s, our government concealed amounts up to the hundreds of millions of dollars that paid for such things as death squads, strikes, economic destabilization, electoral campaigns and media.


All this remains to be investigated in this case. But the intentions of the U.S. government are clear. Last week the State Department ordered non-essential embassy personnel to leave the country, and warned American citizens not to travel here. But there have not been attacks on American citizens or companies here, from either side of the political divide, and this is not a particularly dangerous place for Americans to be.


In this situation, the State Department's extreme measures and warning can only be interpreted as a threat. The Bush Administration has also openly sided with the opposition, demanding early elections here. Then this week Washington changed its position to demanding a referendum on Chavez's presidency, most likely figuring that a divided opposition could easily lose to Chavez in an election, despite its overwhelming advantage in controlling the major means of communication.


The discussion in the U.S. press, dominated by Washington's views, has also taken on an Orwellian tone. Chavez is accused of using "dictatorial powers" for sending the military to recover oil tankers seized by striking captains. White House spokesman Ari Fleischer urged the Venezuelan government "to respect individual rights and fundamental freedoms."


But what would happen to people who hijacked an oil tanker from Exxon-Mobil in the United States? They would be facing a trial and a long prison sentence. Military officers who stood outside the White House and called for the overthrow of the government (and this just six months after a military coup supported by a foreign power) would end up in Guantanamo facing a secret military tribunal for terrorism.


In fact, the U.S. press would be much more fair if it held the Venezuelan government to the standards of the United States. In the U.S., government workers do not have the right to strike at all, as Ronald Reagan demonstrated when he summarily fired 12,000 air traffic controllers in 1981. But even this analogy is incomplete: The air traffic controllers were striking for better working conditions. Here, the employees of the state-owned oil company – mostly managers and executives – are trying to cripple the economy, which is heavily dependent on oil exports, in order to overthrow the government. In the United States, even private sector workers do not have the legal right to strike for political demands, and certainly not for the president's resignation.


In the United States, courts would issue injunctions against the strike, the treasuries of participating unions would be seized, and leaders would be arrested.


Meanwhile, outside of the wealthier areas of eastern Caracas, businesses are open and streets are crowded with shoppers. Life appears normal. This is clearly a national strike of the privileged, and most of the country has not joined it.


More than anything right now, this country needs dialogue and a ratcheting down of the tensions and hostilities between the two opposing camps, so as to avoid a civil war. But this dialogue will never happen if the United States continues to pursue a course of increasing confrontation.


Mark Weisbrot is co-director of the Center for Economic and Policy Research, in Washington D.C.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Agathon
Well we should all believe the Cato institute - a think tank of right wing sophists, who only get paid if they come up with the "right" results. I'm still waiting for that argument, Fez. The argument that somehow justifies fascist tyranny. A child's graph from corrupt "intellectuals" is not enough - let's see some argument of your own.

As for trickle down economics, the easiest thing to say about it is that it doesn't work. A mixed economy is best, with a welfare system for the poor - that is why there is no real poverty in my country and almost no homelessness. None of this is due to anything other than democracy - that's what people wanted, so they voted for it.

It is unfair to criticise the Allende government, which didn't really have the chance to put its plans into practice unmolested - like the Arbenz government or the Sandanistas - funny that.

Typical argument from the left. Ignoring the fact that CATO is a centerist organization.

A mixed economy doesn't work. A country like Sweden will reach bankruptcy in ten years.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
To get beck to the Venezuelan topic

http://www.alternet.org/story.html?StoryID=14809

I was wondering when these stories would pop up. I'll just refer you to the commies post before everyone started picking a fight with Fez.

[Giancarlo]

Alternet has less credibility than Pravda.

[Dr. Nick]

A mixed economy doesn't work. A country like Sweden will reach bankruptcy in ten years.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Originally posted by DinoDoc
I was wondering when these stories would pop up. I'll just refer you to the commies post before everyone started picking a fight with Fez.

let's save the thread ...

[chequita guevara]

Ad hominums won't get you out of the evidence produced by alternet, Dino. Deal with the message, not the messanger.