Venezuelan opposition march

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by TheStinger
Chile is doing well now because it is democratic, and the army no longer interfere.

Chile has been doing well ever since Pinochet started with tough economic measures, some may disagree with me however but that is what I believe. Since the mid 1980s when the army was involved.

[Sikander]

Fezzed.

[Giancarlo]

Be quiet, Sikander.

[aahz_capone]

Damnit, when that three day military coup happened I was so happy I went out and got totally plastered! (I'm half Argentine so I have some stake in this matter.) Everybody was happy, even if it wasn't exactly demaocratic, even Bush said, "Hey, the a$$hole is finally out!" Then two days later the Bush administration thought "oh, sh!t, we can't support an undemocratic military coup, oops! put him back!" Bunch of inconsequential morons should get their policies straight.

Damnit, all of south america is in the dumps but Chile. Hopefully that new socialist guy in Brazil will start a trend of good leaders, but I'm not holding my breath.

[Seeker]

Why can't Chavez just kidnap the senior oil people's kids, as hostages, and begin a bloody purge/'disappearance' of dissenters in the Army and media?

Problem solved.

After all, it's the traditional South American solution, isn't it? Wouldn't do to upset tradition.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Seeker
Why can't Chavez just kidnap the senior oil people's kids, as hostages, and begin a bloody purge/'disappearance' of dissenters in the Army and media?

Well he tried doing that with the rebellious army officers by sending them to jail, the ones who ran the coup but was unsuccessful as the courts went completely against him and had them released. If I recall properly.

Capone:

Everybody was happy, even if it wasn't exactly demaocratic, even Bush said, "Hey, the a$$hole is finally out!" Then two days later the Bush administration thought "oh, sh!t, we can't support an undemocratic military coup, oops! put him back!" Bunch of inconsequential morons should get their policies straight.

The State Department's stance was never that way when the coup occured. How do I know? My dad works for the State Department. I was told by him the US never got involved in that and never supported it. Neither did they condemn the coup either.

Hopefully that new socialist guy in Brazil will start a trend of good leaders, but I'm not holding my breath.

That new socialist guy in Brazil, Lula, doesn't know the first thing about what he has to do.

Fact is he has to struggle with an economy that has shrunked from being the 8th largest in the world to the 12th largest. Brazil's GDP has shedded $300 billion since 1998. In 1998, the GDP peaked at $800 Billion and this year they expect it to fall below $500 billion.

He better be conservative in his economic policies because if he is not Brazil will collapse completely.

[aahz_capone]

Not condemning a military coup is as good as being for it in my book Fez!

And as I said about Lula, I won't hold my breath...

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by aahz_capone
Not condemning a military coup is as good as being for it in my book Fez!

There is a such thing called neutrality.

And as I said about Lula, I won't hold my breath...

Unless he can recover $300 billion that the economy lost I wouldn't hold my breath either.

[Agathon]

Fez has exposed himself to the justified contempt of every reasonable human being by making statements in support of the tyrant, Pinochet.

Are you a half wit, Fez, or do you just have no sense of morality? (the usual two failings among conservatives)

What is happening in Venezuela is what happens when a new democracy meets with mass poverty and a former oligarchy. If the opposition don't like Chavez' policies then they are free to leave or to vote him out. Anything else would involve an intolerable defeat for democracy.

And - what "Fez" doesn't say is that the 30% popularity rating Chavez enjoys is still higher than all his rivals (this from the BBC).

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by Agathon
Fez has exposed himself to the justified contempt of every reasonable human being by making statements in support of the tyrant, Pinochet.

The tyrant put Chile on the right path. Without him Chile would the same as it was in 1973. A basket case.

Are you a half wit, Fez, or do you just have no sense of morality? (the usual two failings among conservatives)

It commonly seems you have no knowledge on what socialist policies do to a nation. Screw it up completely.

What is happening in Venezuela is what happens when a new democracy meets with mass poverty and a former oligarchy.

Bringing in a new oligarchy. The Chavez regime. I don't support either the old or the new. But think a new transparent government like that of Chile must be set up. A new set of tough economic reforms must be set forth.

If the opposition don't like Chavez' policies then they are free to leave or to vote him out. Anything else would involve an intolerable defeat for democracy.

All Chavez needs to do is call for early elections. His country can't make it for another six months. He killed the economy.

And - what "Fez" doesn't say is that the 30% popularity rating Chavez enjoys is still higher than all his rivals (this from the BBC).

You actually believe reports from the BBC?

Chavez is a goner.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by axi
Chavez must arm the people now,

Warmonger!

[DinoDoc]

Obviously this is all a CIA opperation to destablize a widely popular... I can not even say it with a straight face.

More info:

Venezuela strike protests intensify

CARACAS, Venezuela, Dec. 18 — The strike against President Hugo Chavez’s rule was strangling Venezuela’s critical oil industry as opposition demonstrators tried to paralyze the capital Wednesday by blocking roads for the second time this week.

THE STRIKE — which entered its 17th day — has reduced Venezuela’s oil output from nearly 3 million to 400,000 barrels per day, sending the world price of crude oil above $30 a barrel and depriving the country of $50 million daily in export income.

While the lifeblood of the nation’s economy slowed to a trickle, hundreds of the president’s opponents formed lines across major highways and other roads in Caracas, waving flags and blowing on whistles.

The strike has cut Venezuela’s oil exports to the United States — Venezuelan oil normally accounts for 10 percent of U.S. oil imports.

Chavez has sent soldiers to striking oil facilities to little effect. Venezuela’s 13-tanker shipping fleet lay at anchor, its crews having joined the strike. The strike also has caused gasoline shortages in Venezuela.

MARCH TO TOMB

On Tuesday, thousands of protesters marched toward the tomb of independence hero Simon Bolivar in downtown Caracas to mark the 172nd anniversary of the independence hero’s death.

Bolivar also is revered by Chavez and hundreds of the president’s supporters, many wearing red headbands and waving red flags symbolizing his leftist rule, awaited the opposition demonstrators at the tomb, ready to battle them in the streets as they have in recent days.

“We are defending Chavez,” said Heide Carolina Ruiz, an 18-year-old high school student.

Other women tried to hand out red roses to National Guard troops who stood in formation nearby, ready to keep the rival sides apart.

Amid fears that violence might erupt, march leaders decided to halt the demonstration a couple of blocks from the tomb. Then, 30 demonstrators were chosen to enter the building housing the bronze tomb through a side door and under police guard.

“We are going to keep fighting until our country is free again,” retired Marine Lt. Cmdr. Jose Angel Cano pronounced as he laid a red rose on the tomb.

One woman, clutching the Venezuelan flag, wept as the 30 demonstrators sang the national anthem.

“I am crying because I don’t understand the divisions we have among our people,” Meyling Suarez, an unemployed television producer, said afterward. “We are all Venezuelans, but we have been shooting at each other.”

As the 30 demonstrators were hustled out of the building by their police escort, the pro-Chavez demonstrators realized they were present and shouted insults at them. There was no violence.

U.S. BACKS OAS

The United States expressed strong support Tuesday for an Organization of American States resolution rejecting any attempt at subverting the democratic process in Venezuela. OAS Secretary General Cesar Gaviria is in Caracas mediating negotiations on possible elections.

Venezuela is teetering on the brink of another paroxysm of bloodshed, like the coup that ousted Chavez for two days last April.

As night fell, spontaneous pro- and anti-Chavez demonstrations broke out in Caracas, with National Guard troops and police keeping the antagonists apart.

The opposition — which accuses Chavez of polarizing Venezuelan society and subverting democratic rule — wants the elected president to resign or submit to a referendum on whether he should remain in office. But Venezuela’s constitution requires him to accept the results of a possible recall only halfway into his six-year term, or next August. Chavez has defied calls for elections in early 2003.

GASOLINE HALTED

The president was dealt a blow Tuesday when officials at the giant Hovensa refinery in the U.S. Virgin Island of St. Croix said no gasoline shipments were headed to Venezuela, which has a majority stake in the refinery.

“If the gasoline goes, there will be chaos,” Rafael Haddat, a 44-year-old agronomist, said at a filling station.

Two of Venezuela’s largest refineries, including one producing gasoline for Venezuela and the United States, already have shut down. Oil executives vowed to keep up the pressure.

"The overall sentiment among workers is: Strike until he leaves,” said Gonzalo Feijoo, an adviser for Venezuela’s state-owned oil monopoly, Petroleos de Venezuela, S.A., where top management is in open rebellion.

In the eastern state of Anzoategui, police stopped about 300 pro-Chavez workers heading to the Anaco natural gas plant to force it to open.

[Giancarlo]

The people are rebelling against the leftist populist. About time that happens. Maybe Latin America has some hope now.

[El León]

It is sad to see the state of conservatism today. They have become ultra-liberals and are probably not even aware.
What happened to humanism? Christianity?

Chavez will not fall. Fidel Castro will not fall. But you can keep feeding the beast.

The opposition "marched" in cars, created "strikes" from above, not from the consent of the workers. Meanwhile, three million people marched to show their support...
For Salvador Allende.

Surely, you must not know too much about Chile. The numbers may tell you wonderful things about the economy, but the truth is in the fact that a national pastime is going to the supermarket, filling your little cart with expensive thigns and then abandoning it... It is all a storefront.

And Pinochet is a murderer. But I guess, like Friedman says, sometimes you must cut the arm to save the person. Or in the D'Aubuisson version - If you allow us to kill 250,000 people, El Salvador will be well.
So go ahead, Fez, you can start shooting anytime...
But don't be shocked if people shoot back.

[Giancarlo]

Originally posted by El Leon
It is sad to see the state of conservatism today. They have become ultra-liberals and are probably not even aware.
What happened to humanism? Christianity?

What happened to capitalism?

Chavez will not fall. Fidel Castro will not fall. But you can keep feeding the beast.

Chavez will fall because he has pulled down the economy with intent.

The opposition "marched" in cars, created "strikes" from above, not from the consent of the workers.

From what I hear they have complete consent from the workers. Infact the workers are striking with them.

Meanwhile, three million people marched to show their support... For Salvador Allende.

Three million? Source. Also may I bring up a fact, Chile is much better off today than it was with that soviet pig dog.

Surely, you must not know too much about Chile. The numbers may tell you wonderful things about the economy, but the truth is in the fact that a national pastime is going to the supermarket, filling your little cart with expensive thigns and then abandoning it... It is all a storefront.

Where did you get this from? I happened to visit Chile on several dozen occasions. And I don't see any of this.

And Pinochet is a murderer. But I guess, like Friedman says, sometimes you must cut the arm to save the person. Or in the D'Aubuisson version - If you allow us to kill 250,000 people, El Salvador will be well.

You are pathetic and misstating my beliefs. If you really want something done, let my country run Latin America again.

So go ahead, Fez, you can start shooting anytime.. But don't be shocked if people shoot back.

You have failed in providing me anything to work with.

Mind I ask, do you work for the PRI?