Say "NO!" to the Occupation!

[NeOmega]

Originally posted by Oerdin


And rightly so. We are a democracy where the majority wins and gets to send their representative to Congress. The Congress then gets to pass the bugetr.

Those arrogant, for that is what they are, individuals who think their opinions are better then everyone elses, that their opinions should carry more weight then everyone elses, and who think that they should be above the decisions of the democratic process are wrong.

When they break the law they should go to jail just like everyone else.

Wrong. We have a constitution and a Bill of rights. One of the amendments in the constitution is XIII;

Niether slavery nor involuntary servitude except as a punishment for a crime whereof the party shall have been duly convicted, shall exist within the United States, or any place subject to their jurisdiction.

So is being a pacifist a crime? Or is being forced to kill people to stop communism in Vietnam not involuntary servitude?

The whole reason the 13 original colonies accepted the new constitution was the bill of rights, and respect for the individual, and even the rights of the individual over the rights of the masses.

But fools like you try to run around and say we are a majority rule country. whatever 51% of the country thinks is right and moral, it must be so.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Azazel



"Sit in prison". Oh you political prisoner you. you realize that most of the people that do go to prison over this don't get more than a week or two.

oh and I do believe that it possible for a pacifist not to serve in the army. However if one is afraid that he would be given totally illegal orders, one could still or go to non-combat, to be ridden of the doubt completely, or go, and know that as every soldier is told, one can and MUST oppose an illegal order, such as shooting civilians, etc.

paiktis once asked me : "Do you guys think about leaving? "
I don't think it's fair to leave a country, esp. a welfare state that has given you education, heath etc. from birth. In a sense, it's like letting your family behind. But if you feel that we're not worthy of you, please, leave your pair of keys behind. Good luck abroad.

Azazel, I would hope that any such conviction includes the permanent loss of the right to vote as it does in the United States.

[NeOmega]

I personally think that leaving one's country to avoid the draft is reprehensible and is not justified by the correctness of one's country's foreign policy. Isreal is a democracy. The correct approach is to vote for a change.

Azazel, I would hope that any such conviction includes the permanent loss of the right to vote as it does in the United States.

right so how does a pacifist avoid killing innocent people?

And what about the 18 or 19 year old who is drafted but never even got a chance to vote?

[Az]

no it doesn't. Prisoners retain the voting rights.

[Provost Harrison]

The attitude that 'the government is always right' expressed by the likes of Ned is rather scary. Remember the principle of democracy is not purely about the will of the majority. It is not acceptable for them to force their will on a group who do not agree with them!

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Provost Harrison
It is not acceptable for them to force their will on a group who do not agree with them!

It depends on the situation. When the workers democratically decide to appropriate the property of the capitalists, I think that's an acceptable use of democracy.

[NeOmega]

It depends on the situation. When the workers democratically decide to appropriate the property of the capitalists, I think that's an acceptable use of democracy.

Why commies are scary. Do you really think the "workers" will use the property any better? Or not abuse their new found power?

[David Floyd]

Question: Is it, in your opinion, moral or whatever (you know what I mean) for me to dodge the draft or go to the US in order to escape the prison sentence that is a consequence of disobeying the draft (assuming that you do not consider not being in the Army moral)?

It is very moral to dodge the draft, and it is very moral to avoid being punished for that "crime".

[VetLegion]

I verify Mark Liporovsky is a real person. I have talked to him in mIRC about alt civ game quite some time before, all of that would be too much trouble for a DL.


about dodging the draft... nationalism is not very in among the educated elites, but there may happen a situation when everyone has to pick a side and being a 'citizen of the world' leaves you standing alone. Such situation is full scale warfare, or next pogrom of the jews.

be careful about irreversible decisions young jedi

[Dinner]

Originally posted by NeOmega
Wrong. We have a constitution and a Bill of rights. One of the amendments in the constitution is XIII;

Well, I feel so much better knowing that NeOmega knows so much more about the constitution then the Supreme Court of the United States! All you proved is how a little knowledge is enough to lead you into the wrong conclusion. The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

BTW to show you what a nice guy I am I'm going to give you a chance to appalogize for your personal attack or I will report you to Ming.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by NeOmega
Do you really think the "workers" will use the property any better? Or not abuse their new found power?

Maybe, maybe not. But since we create the world, we should own it, we should democratically decide what to do with it. If we make mistakes, well, they are our mistakes and not forced on us from above.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by David Floyd


It is very moral to dodge the draft, and it is very moral to avoid being punished for that "crime".

Nothing moral about it. It's saving your own skin is all. Still got your Seletive Service card David, or did you burn it? That's right you may need it to get any money in the future. Principles can wait until you can afford them right?

[Ramo]

And rightly so. We are a democracy where the majority wins and gets to send their representative to Congress. The Congress then gets to pass the bugetr.

Those arrogant, for that is what they are, individuals who think their opinions are better then everyone elses, that their opinions should carry more weight then everyone elses, and who think that they should be above the decisions of the democratic process are wrong.

Interesting. So it would've been wrong for Japanese Americans to resist the US gov't's attempts to toss 'em in concentration campse? It was wrong for protesters to be sedititious when the gov't passed laws to suppress dissidents (the Espionage Act, the A&S Acts, the Smith Act, and so forth)? It was wrong for MLK and the rest of the Civil Rights movement to use civil disobedience to challenge segregation? It was wrong for strikers to defend themselves when the gov't approves of their suppression (or directly participates)?Etc., etc., etc.

Is resisting a government always wrong if it calls itself democratic?

The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

Just because SCOTUS is politically motivated to undermine our liberties, doesn't make their decisions grounded in the Constitution. Quite clearly, involuntary servitude is prohibited in the Constitution and conscriptions is undoubtedly involuntary servitude.

[David Floyd]

The Supreme Court has been over and over this issue time and again and in every case it has concluded that the draft is in no way unconsitutional.

Actually, they have only ruled once on the involuntary servitude argument, and that was only addressed by about two sentences of text in a WW1 decision that was not in any way legally objective, but rather laced with nationalism. I think that is a very challengeable decision.

Nothing moral about it. It's saving your own skin is all.

What's immoral about that?

Still got your Seletive Service card David, or did you burn it? That's right you may need it to get any money in the future. Principles can wait until you can afford them right?

I figured I might as well register for SS, to avoid legal trouble. If it comes down to it, I won't serve, and I don't view my registration as accepting a valid contract, because it was coerced - if I did not do it, I could have been sent to prison, thus it was an involuntary contract that I don't feel bound by.

[Ming]

Originally posted by David Floyd
I don't view my registration as accepting a valid contract, because it was coerced - if I did not do it, I could have been sent to prison, thus it was an involuntary contract that I don't feel bound by.

It's just like any other law you have to follow... whether you like it or not, and no matter what your opinoin on the subject is... it is THE law at this point in time.

And do you feel "coerced" not to commit murder or other acts simply because you get sent to prison.
Your logic is really weak/nonexsistent on this one.