Say "NO!" to the Occupation!

[Goingonit]

This is really hard.

In the beginning, Eli is saying that the extreme left is leaving Israel because they don't want to serve.

And the last bit is, "Like David says, do you want to leave? Go, but don't badmouth Israel to everyone in the way of the outside."

[Eli]

In the beginning, Eli is saying that the extreme left is leaving Israel because they don't want to serve.

Errr... no. But close.

[Firelad]

Thanks to the people who talked on topic
For those who responded to my question, I was really asking whether It would be moral for me to try to evade the legal punishment for not serving, not if it was moral not to serve.

Originally posted by MichaeltheGreat

How long have you been in Israel, and how did you get there?

I have lived here for 12 years, my parents having immigrated here when I was five.

How much have you (based on location, what not) been a beneficiary of the policies you oppose?

Those policies have supposedly protected me from terrorist attacks. I believe that more than that, they have contributed to the "cycle of violence".

What is/will be your future attachment to the state of Israel?

Maybe I'll live here sometime. Not too likely though. I'll certainly visit.

Is your objection truly based on a fundamental personal principle that you will act on consistently, or simply a desire to avoid inconvenience and discomfort, or outright cowardice? (not challenging you, just it's a criteria IMO that you have to honestly answer for yourself)

Yes. It had taken me a year of hard thinking to reach that conclusion.

Are there legal forms of what in the US is referred to as "conscientious objector" status? Alternate forms of national service?

Yes for girls, not for boys.

By either dodging the draft, or doing prison time and then remaining in Israel, what would your goals be in either case?

If I would dodge the draft I would merely dissociate myself from the IDF and not serve it. If I would sit in prison It would be demonstrating my beliefs and perhaps more "honourable" - like taking responsibility.

Is your opposition to military service in any form (i.e. complete and absolute pacifism a la Gandhi), or is it to specific policies/acts of the IDF or Israeli government?

I am not sure. I cannot concieve of an army I would agree to serve - but I am not entirely pacifist.


Azazel: I don't want to go to daddy in the US - I am only doing it because I have promised to. And I could have gone there and still serve in the army, everything was worked out. So the visit to my father has nothing to do with this matter. Interesting how some people find it hard to believe that it's possible to be actually unwilling to be drafted because of principles and beliefs...

~Mark

[Eli]

Hey, what will your options in the manila be?

1) Jail 6.
2) Jail 4.
3) etc.
4) etc.

[Az]

If I would dodge the draft I would merely dissociate myself from the IDF and not serve it. If I would sit in prison It would be demonstrating my beliefs and perhaps more "honourable" - like taking responsibility.

"Sit in prison". Oh you political prisoner you. you realize that most of the people that do go to prison over this don't get more than a week or two.

oh and I do believe that it possible for a pacifist not to serve in the army. However if one is afraid that he would be given totally illegal orders, one could still or go to non-combat, to be ridden of the doubt completely, or go, and know that as every soldier is told, one can and MUST oppose an illegal order, such as shooting civilians, etc.

paiktis once asked me : "Do you guys think about leaving? "
I don't think it's fair to leave a country, esp. a welfare state that has given you education, heath etc. from birth. In a sense, it's like letting your family behind. But if you feel that we're not worthy of you, please, leave your pair of keys behind. Good luck abroad.

[chequita guevara]

But even non-combat roles support the occupation. After all, if they can't get the food out to the soldiers in the Territories, how could you keep occupying them?

[Eli]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
But even non-combat roles support the occupation. After all, if they can't get the food out to the soldiers in the Territories, how could you keep occupying them?

Every Shekel of taxes he pays supports the occupation. Should he also not pay taxes?

[Az]

well, the occupation was, in fact, over, (most of the people didn't see an Israeli soldier or most of them any jew, unless they travelled to Israel proper) until a few months ago, and now there is, in fact , a state of war, so 'I' personally have no problem of serving in the army.( There was of course the question of territory and Intl. law). But I guess my and his views differ. I even contemplated going into combat. But I decided to go to school first.

[chequita guevara]

There are those who would make such an argument. During the 1980s, many people deducted from their taxes the portion of the money that would be be used to pay for nuclear weapons. Not a few of them went to jail for it, also.

[chequita guevara]

The revolutionary position is, serve in the armed forces, and try and convince your fellow soliders that the war is wrong. During the Vietnam, a few communists in the military got units to refuse to serve.

[Ned]

I personally think that leaving one's country to avoid the draft is reprehensible and is not justified by the correctness of one's country's foreign policy. Isreal is a democracy. The correct approach is to vote for a change.

Clinton and to some extent Dan Quail both avoided service during the Vietnam war. Even though Clinton went on to become president of the United States, he never gained the confidence of the US military or the majority of Americians. (He was elected twice by minority votes.)

I think if you carry out you plan and dodge the draft, you will ruin you life.

[Dinner]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
There are those who would make such an argument. During the 1980s, many people deducted from their taxes the portion of the money that would be be used to pay for nuclear weapons. Not a few of them went to jail for it, also.

And rightly so. We are a democracy where the majority wins and gets to send their representative to Congress. The Congress then gets to pass the bugetr.

Those arrogant, for that is what they are, individuals who think their opinions are better then everyone elses, that their opinions should carry more weight then everyone elses, and who think that they should be above the decisions of the democratic process are wrong.

When they break the law they should go to jail just like everyone else.

[Az]

yes, but you see, in this moment in time, I don't believe that the war is wrong. some actions may be wrong, but the war itself is not. I will not do anythings that are against my morals, and will persuade any other person to follow me, but sadly, this is not the case.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Oerdin
When they break the law they should go to jail just like everyone else.

Only the one's who went public over their refusal to send in all of their taxes went to jail. They were deliberately setting themselves up as martyrs. They agreed with you, and they accepted the consequences of what they felt was their moral duty to oppose the evil of nuclear war. (You also need to keep in mind that in the 1980s, many of us thought that nuclear war was imminent--what with Reagan talking about winnable nuclear wars and all.)

[Eli]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
The revolutionary position is, serve in the armed forces, and try and convince your fellow soliders that the war is wrong. During the Vietnam, a few communists in the military got units to refuse to serve.

I dont think it's going to work in Israel...

First... The war is much easier than in Vietnam, against a much weaker enemy. And second, when a suicide bomber blows up every once in a while in Israel, they understand what they are fighting for, unlike the American soldiers in Vietnam.