Say "NO!" to the Occupation!

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Firelad

You have my support too, It is good to see that there are people in Israel who can think for themselves and call something wrong when they see it as such. And if I were you, I would go earlier rather than later, as if this last Iraq/USA straw breaks you might regret for not leaving earlier.

[Guardian]

Originally posted by Firelad
Guardian, I am under as big a threat of terror as the next person. I do live in a relatively safe city, but it really has nothing to do with my decision. I refuse to cooperate with the gov't and the army in that matter... That's it. I simply cannot do so while still staying myself, if you know what I mean.

I think I do. And for the record, I'm not sure what I would have done in your place.

With the army, I suppose you're either with them all the way or not with them at all. If a soldier hesitates at a critical moment, he might very well end up getting his comrades killed, or getting hurt himself.

I can see a wide range of situations that could easily become very difficult to handle. For instance: If your unit is taking fire from a building where you know there could also be civilians pinned down, and you're somehow stuck in a position where you can't get everyone back out of harm's way in a hurry...

If you return fire, you risk hitting civilians, and if you don't, you'll probably lose at least one or two of your squad.

In this situation, a trained soldier has to return fire to cover his buddies. -But he also has to try his damned hardest not to hit any civilians in doing so.

Alas, this is war and bad things happen in war. Some times it can't be helped...

Like I said, I don't know what I would have done in your place.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

GO to US... if there is a mass exodus from Israel, the government policy is bound to change, but I somehow doubt this will happen

[Guardian]

Originally posted by aaglo

I believe, that every action in ME-area leads to a dead end...

Actually, that's what the line in my signature refers to.

Well, not just the Middle East, but certainly including the Middle East. The problem as I see it is that although all parties claim they want peace, yet they all keep going around and around and around in circles...

[Ned]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
So Ned, what do you think about Bush's avoiding going to Vietnam by having his powerful, rich daddy getting him into a cushy national guard position, which he then proceeded to go AWOL from?

Sorry, I don't know anything about that. I thought that was Dan Quail.

[Ned]

Fireland, What do you believe is the path to peace in Palestine?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Guardian
Just a little elaboration on the subject of my previous post:

A government's policies can be wrong, of course, but blowing up kids - for any reason - is also wrong, and can never be justified. Hence, even though we might actually agree about the politics, if you blow up kids in my country, you're my enemy.

It's as simple as that, really.

So, say you were a German living under the Nazis in 1942. You disagree with the Nazi policies, know they have invaded other countries, know they are practicing "ethnic cleansing." Freedom fighters from the occupied countries are, however, making strikes agains Germany in response to the invasions. Would you still feel morally obligated to pick up a gun and fight for the Nazis, when you believe it is the Nazis' actions which are responsible for this situation?

[Firelad]

Originally posted by Ned
Fireland, What do you believe is the path to peace in Palestine?

Well, first of all it would involve the end of the occupation - the end of Israel's aggression. The way we "defend ourselves" now produces two terrorists for every one we kill and ten for every civilian we kill. And we kill a lot.
We have caused so much destruction that there's no chance we will be forgiven even in a generation. Only a lasting, just peace (including RoR!) has any chance to amend the wounds, and even then only in time.
That it will be a long process doesn't mean we should keep perpetuating the conflict, and making peace even more remote. Which is what being done now - seemingly as if on purpose!
I cannot cooperate with such a government, a government of butchers - the cause for suffering and death on both "sides". We're all in it together... There is no escaping Israel's and Palestine's mutual future.

[Eli]

(including RoR!)

So... Supporting the RoR from the US, eh?

I'm not even going to argue with your support of the idea... Have fun in the states.

[Firelad]

I'd like to add something. The most sickening part of it, in my opinion, is what is often expressed in the sentence: "It's good to die for our country". In hebrew, "country" also means "land"... People are willing to die for territory, for a painted piece of cloth, give their lives for a piece of fiction called a State.
They value the State above human life... They are "Manpower", expendable cannon fodder for the defence of the State.
How can those things, territory, flag and country be valued above the life of a single person? Why should anyone die to defend the power of stupid, arrogant and egocentric "rulers" for whom the life's blood of a human being is perhaps akin to red ink, a statistic that is used to prolong their power and reign? The war is not for the defence of the population; the population is defence for the war. War perpetuates itself. Sacrifices the lives of men, women and children on its own altar... And for what? For that elusive, powerful concept of the State. An institution that should work for the people and that has the people die for it instead...
For it and for the said bunch of heartless bastards at the top.

Sickening.

[Firelad]

Originally posted by Eli

I'm not even going to argue with your support of the idea...

Didn't think so... I have yet to see anyone truly refute its nessecity. The right exists, it is the right of the refugees - it doesn't need to be given. Only its implementation allowed.

Have fun in the states.

First of all I am not yet there. And perhaps I wouldn't have been planning to move away if that, among others, had been implemented.

[Firelad]

Sorry, got confused with board controls...

[Eli]

Originally posted by Firelad
Didn't think so... I have yet to see anyone truly refute its nessecity. The right exists, it is the right of the refugees - it doesn't need to be granted. Only its implementation allowed.

I agree that the right exists.

But if taking this right from them is necessary to keep Israel a Jewish state, then it's only a small price to pay.

Do you really want to live in a neighborhood knowing that your neighbors were chanting "itbah al yahud" songs in Hizballah marches only a few months ago?

You can say that we are responsible for their hostility, and that it is our fault that they want to kill us, but it makes no difference. Whether it's 100% our fault or 0%, I dont want 4.5 million brainwashed fanatics in my backyard.

Morals? Ethics? Rights? They are important, but my(in this case Israel's) existence and well being come first.

[Ned]

Fireland, I was watching a retrospective on Aba Eban yesterday. He said the formation of Israeli and its victory in '48 was the greatest single event in all Jewish history: greater than Moses' liberation of the people from Egypt, greater than the conquest of the holy land in 1300 BC; and greater still than the return from Babylonian exile.

I find it puzzling that you, an Israeli citizen, do not share this view.

[Eli]

Originally posted by Firelad
I'd like to add something. The most sickening part of it, in my opinion, is what is often expressed in the sentence: "It's good to die for our country". In hebrew, "country" also means "land"... People are willing to die for territory, for a painted piece of cloth, give their lives for a piece of fiction called a State.
They value the State above human life... They are "Manpower", expendable cannon fodder for the defence of the State.
How can those things, territory, flag and country be valued above the life of a single person? Why should anyone die to defend the power of stupid, arrogant and egocentric "rulers" for whom the life's blood of a human being is perhaps akin to red ink, a statistic that is used to prolong their power and reign? The war is not for the defence of the population; the population is defence for the war. War perpetuates itself. Sacrifices the lives of men, women and children on its own altar... And for what? For that elusive, powerful concept of the State. An institution that should work for the people and that has the people die for it instead...
For it and for the said bunch of heartless bastards at the top.

Will you agree that in the Arab states surrounding Israel this problem is much more substansial?