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Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

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  • #76
    Re: Re: Re: Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

    Originally posted by Heresson


    Russians didn't want to cooperate with Tchechenian authorities, not the other way round. Tchechenian gouverment didn't involve in supporting the mentioned bandits, and it started fighting only when Russians entered Tchechenia.
    This is all consistent with the government of Chechnya being in bed with terrorists in the first place.
    http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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    • #77
      Originally posted by Sava
      Actually, I do have the right to judge an inhumane islamic regime... and the children of peoples like the Chechens, Albanians, Iraqis, Afghanis, etc; deserve basic human rights.
      I think the Chechen women prefer to be humble islamic wives rather than to be raped by russian soldiers. And yes, we can judge verbal, but nobody gives us the right to drop bombs. This includes Putin.

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      • #78
        Originally posted by Sir Ralph
        I think the Chechen women prefer to be humble islamic wives rather than to be raped by russian soldiers. And yes, we can judge verbal, but nobody gives us the right to drop bombs. This includes Putin.

        I think the Chechen women would rather be free from the male dominated oppressive system of Islam.

        I agree with you somewhat... carpet bombing Chechnya is just plain wrong. But I wouldn't be opposed to Putin going in and liberating Chechnya. Ideally, I'd like to see Chechnya be an independent democratic nation. But right now the choice seems to be:
        1) be ruled by oppressive Islamic system
        2) be part of corrupt Russian democracy

        At least with #2, Russia has some degree of control over terrorism. If Russia were to pull out of Chechnya and grant the Islamic fundies their independence, do you think the terrorism would stop? If you say yes, you are incredibly naive.
        To us, it is the BEAST.

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        • #79
          Sava, Even the United States has an interest in Russian victory. We saw many Chechens in Afghanistan. They were a key component of al Qaida. I suspect the so-called rebels are primarily Muslim extremists, not Chechen democratic nationalists. If these people were to win, they would no doubt establish Chechnya as an extremist Islamic state that would harbor al Qaida.

          I think the Russians have to win and keep Chechnya under control until the war on terror is over.

          Several years ago, the war in Chechnya was not well understood by Americans. It seems like a conventional struggle for freedom not unlike our own American revolution. I suspect that most Americans had no idea that Chechnya was Muslim, nor had any idea that radical Islam was planning to destroy America. 9/11 changed our perceptions of the world and our perception of Chechnya.
          http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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          • #80
            Originally posted by Sava
            At least with #2, Russia has some degree of control over terrorism. If Russia were to pull out of Chechnya and grant the Islamic fundies their independence, do you think the terrorism would stop? If you say yes, you are incredibly naive.

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            • #81
              Originally posted by Sprayber
              If you really want to look smart, compare the situation with Hawaii.


              Beat me to the punch! Hawai'i's monarchy was overthrown by the US, who then despoiled the place turning one of their most sacred islands (Kahoolawe) into a gunnery target!

              The majority of Hawai'ians would like to be independen - problem is that they are outnumbered by the other 90% of the population (the US did a good colonisation job!)

              Still, things are looking better - when I was there, there seemed to be a real cultural awareness coming through in places like the Big Island...

              So, if you're American and want Chechnya independent - you gotta want Hawai'i independent too!

              BTW Ramo, Chechnya was a mostly autonomous state within Russia - most of the outlying ones usually are IIRC. They certainly had in 1991-94 & 1996-99 but they threw it away both times...

              Do they deserve a third bite at the cherry???
              Is it me, or is MOBIUS a horrible person?

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              • #82
                Sir Ralph, Why are you Germans consistently supporting enemies of the United States, the UK and Russia? I see a long and consistent pattern in the posts of Germans on this forum.
                http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                • #83
                  Ned, I have some possible explanations for you:

                  1. Germans have aversion to anything that resembles the use of military force. Their post WW2 slogan, "Nie Wieder Krieg", has more authority on people's mind than their constitution.

                  2. Another thing, in case you people haven't noticed so far, is that most Euros support any kind of separatist movement. They were ethusiatic about the breakups of USSR, they accelerated the disintegration of Yugoslavia, they had done nothing against Scotland and NI trying to break up, they were sympathetic to Quebecans attempting independence, and they certainly welcome the Chechnyan trying to do the same.

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                  • #84
                    That was quite stupid of them, wasn't it?

                    Originally posted by Lord Merciless
                    they accelerated the disintegration of Yugoslavia,
                    How did they do that?
                    I make no bones about my moral support for [terrorist] organizations. - chegitz guevara
                    For those who aspire to live in a high cost, high tax, big government place, our nation and the world offers plenty of options. Vermont, Canada and Venezuela all offer you the opportunity to live in the socialist, big government paradise you long for. –Senator Rubio

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                    • #85
                      No, LM. The European politicians are playing the same realpolitik as everyone else, and don't take any rights or wrongs into consideration. Their INTERESTS and their interests alone are the guide to their policies, and I don't denounce them because of that, or feel disgusted by it, due to the fact that EVERYONE DOES IT. The only think I dislike in geo-politics is the bull**** veil . Cut the crap, people! It is so clear that morality of any sort doesn't come into play in these games...
                      urgh.NSFW

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                      • #86
                        Re: That was quite stupid of them, wasn't it?

                        Originally posted by DinoDoc
                        How did they do that?
                        Don't remember back in 1990 and 1991? Yugoslavia was already unstable, but a peaceful settlement was not out of reach. It was Germany and some of its EU cronies who unilaterily recognized Croatia, Slovenia, and Bosnia. It was then a no brainer that nationalists in these countries got enboldened and the conflicts immediately escalated.

                        When the schootings really started, Germany and other EU states didn't do anything(their "nie wieder Krieg" slogan had something to do with it), leading to the long Croatian and Bosnian wars that ultimately killed 200,000 people and devastated the former Yugoslavia. It was not until the US stepped in and destroyed Bosnian Serb's heavy weapons, that finally ended the war in Bosnia. Then the Euros still had the guts to protest against our intervention!

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                        • #87
                          Originally posted by Azazel
                          No, LM. The European politicians are playing the same realpolitik as everyone else, and don't take any rights or wrongs into consideration. Their INTERESTS and their interests alone are the guide to their policies, and I don't denounce them because of that, or feel disgusted by it, due to the fact that EVERYONE DOES IT. The only think I dislike in geo-politics is the bull**** veil . Cut the crap, people! It is so clear that morality of any sort doesn't come into play in these games...
                          These politicians are reasonable. My hat off to them.

                          What I'm talking about is the vast leftist, ignorant and day-dreaming masses who are quite mainstream in Europe. You should know by now what people like Saint Marcus, Sir Ralph, Mobius are thinking.

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                          • #88
                            Azazel, If you are right, the post cold war world is reforming along the pattern that existed prior to WWI, but this time, with France in Germany's corner.
                            http://tools.wikimedia.de/~gmaxwell/jorbis/JOrbisPlayer.php?path=John+Williams+The+Imperial+M arch+from+The+Empire+Strikes+Back.ogg&wiki=en

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                            • #89
                              Originally posted by Azazel
                              Cut the crap, people!
                              Quite - you accused me of making something up and I provided evidence and source for my statement. It wouldn't hurt you to at least acknowledge this.
                              (+1)

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                              • #90
                                Sonic, it's really a pity Chechnya doesn't have a common border with Lithuania. Otherwise we would gladly set them free and watch what could happen to your country.

                                Actually, I guess, the optimal location for the independent Chechnya would be somewhere between Lithuania and Poland.
                                Freedom is just unawareness of being manipulated.

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