Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

[Sonic]

Orange, there were already such electons, majority wanted independence. The same happened in other Russian-occupied country, Tatarstan.

[Pekka]

Serb, are you trying to say Russian soldiers are not using too much force sometimes? Then why do I see stuff on the news like women shot and stuff like that? And official sources from different countries with simular material? All propaganda?
Some might be propaganda, but it's not all propaganda. If you think that your soldiers have not participated in some of those horrific acts, then you are yourself victim of propaganda, and blinded by it.
I'm NOT saying that they are ordered to torture or whatever. It's war there, and soldiers are individuals, and stuff sometimes happens.. you know that, I know that. I don't think it's systematic, bad stuff just happens sometimes and rotten eggs are in every army.

Just like in the lines of Chechens. We just saw the rotten eggs from there too. But they are not ALL terrorists and scum, don't you think? Some are for sure.

I saw a document where young Russians had to go to the army and were then sent to Chechenya. It was pretty bad, since they didn't have very long training, and the fighters in Chechen force had much more experience, so they got ambushed and stuff like that. It doesn't mean they're terrorists. And things like that makes you frustrated, and sometimes overkills happens. Do you agree?

and as for the question, I don't know.. I don't know enough about Chechens and their cause, or to be more accurate, I don't know their history with Russia.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

- you can see where I'm going with this...

Yes, your one track mind is well known here.

[chequita guevara]

The Chechens were very happy to have their independence, but they quickly lost their freedoms to the Islamic gangsters which took over the country. The Chechen people of Grozny are happy to be liberated, and what they want now, most of all, is peace.

Serb, the Russians are trying very hard to keep what is going on from being heard by the rest of the world, but they cannot stop all of the information. Russian soldiers haven't kept quiet, and Western media has been able to get in and out of Chechnya with evidence of attrocities committed by the Russians: torture, disappearances, mass killings.

The goodwill that the Russians had in liberating the Chechen people from their oppressors has been squandered by typical Russian ham-handedness.

Mobius, everyone deserves independence. The choice, however, is up to them. I guarantee the majority of people living in the Southwest US don't want to return to Mexico, probably not even a majority of Mexicans living there.

[Sonic]

Yes, Chegitz. Russia even does not allows any journalists or foreign people to Chechnya. And yes, Russians commited many attrocities, they killed about 200'000 people in genocide.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

The relationship between Russia and Chechnya is very much like that between European powers and their colonies, which in most cases ended some 40 years ago.
Chechens have the same right to independence as Estonians or Tajiks. An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism.

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[GePap]

The Chechens d0o have very bad blood with the Russians: The original war to annex the area went on for decades and was very bloody, and good Ol' Stalin (yes, even if he was Gerogian) had the entire population sent to Siberia, so it should be no surprise that they wanted out of Russia, and still do.

The bahavior of the Russian army in chechnya is attrocious, but its not just a Russian things: its bound to happen when you put lots of green conscripts in a land full of enemies that look like everyone else, people who don't like you very much, the boredom of doing little mixed with terror, low pay, lots of drugs and such moving about that's a recipe for cruel actions. American soldiers would do tha same in such a situation, specialy if the gov. decided to overlook any criminal activity on the part of it soldiers until it becomes simply too embarrasing.

The best solution is autonomy, under Russian suzereinity.

[chequita guevara]

One of the significant things about the hostage situation, however, was the fact that Moscow Chechens volunteered to take the place of hostages.

There isn't total hatred between the two communities.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
One of the significant things about the hostage situation, however, was the fact that Moscow Chechens volunteered to take the place of hostages.

There isn't total hatred between the two communities.

I would think the Moscow Chechens have a lot to loose in this situations.

[chequita guevara]

There are risks either way. Either they do nothing and let their fellow Mucovites hate them or they exchange themselves for Russians and be considered traitors by the terrorists who have seized the hostages. Either way, they had a lot to lose.

[Serb]

Yes, Chegitz. Russia even does not allows any journalists or foreign people to Chechnya. And yes, Russians commited many attrocities, they killed about 200'000 people in genocide.

Dudev- Chechen president (so belowed by you sonic) orederd to start Jihad against unbelievers. They start to cut throwts to all non-Chechen population of Chechnya. What do you think Russians should do just watch?
Those 200 000 were killed mostly by those freedom fighters during first weeksof Jihad.

[Az]

che: me thinks that the suggestion was a show of sympathy at max, because the chechen terrorists have already released the muslim part of the audience, at that point.

An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism.

what's the logic in that ?

[Serb]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
One of the significant things about the hostage situation, however, was the fact that Moscow Chechens volunteered to take the place of hostages.

There isn't total hatred between the two communities.

At least one man start to realize that will of terrorists and will of Chechen people is different things. Chechen people hate those bandits (which you call official representatives of Chechen people Maskhadov and Co) no less then Russians.
Today in Chechnya was many meetings locals CHEHCEN people started those meetings. Thier slogans were- “No Vahhabism, no terrorism”, “Maskhadov get away from Chechnya”. I wonder if your mass media showed those meetings.
Not only Chechen who live in Moscow offered to exchange themselves for children who were inside, but Chechens from Chechnya wanted to come to Moscow.
I wounder if your media showed Chechen womens in Chechnya who was happy when situation was resolved. Just compare it with video when Palestine women was happy after Sept 11 and you'll see the difference.
For three years Chechen people suffered from Vahhabites and all kinf of bandits, Chechen people hate Maskhadov and his sefs who did this hostage capture no less then Russian.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Oldenbarnevelt
The relationship between Russia and Chechnya is very much like that between European powers and their colonies, which in most cases ended some 40 years ago.
Chechens have the same right to independence as Estonians or Tajiks. An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism.

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We already went trough this. Since 1996, for three years those guys were free to do all what they want. We didn't controled them even a bit. And they created their "state" and It was extreme fanatical Islam dictatorship based on Vahhabite teachings. It ended when they attacked us again in 1999. They exploded several apartment buildings in few cities of Russia and started expansion- invaded neighbor Dagestan. They can’t just remain in their borders they need to grow, because their goal isn’t Chechnya. Their goal is united extreme fanatic Islamic state based on Shariah law and vahhabite teachings. The state from Indonesia to Tatarstasn. This is what they want- dictatorship of vahhabism. They are fanatics and they will not stop until kill all unbelievers. I don’t mean terrorists in Chechnya only, but worldwide terrorists part of them is Chechen terrorists.

[Serb]

The best solution is autonomy, under Russian suzereinity.

The last terrorist act in Moscow was an attemt to stop political solution in Chechnya. Soon the should be a referendum. Maskhadov and his bandids feel that people of Chechnya is not on their side. It was scream of desperados.
Chechnya will be a wide autonomy (it's already in fact, but after consitution will be accepted by people it will become legaly), and it will be under Russian suzereinity.
At least untill we'll be 100% sure that it will not become "home, sweet home" for terrorists, kidnapers and slavers. At least untill we'll be 100% sure that they will not attack us again.