Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

[MOBIUS]

People have been quick to condemn the Russians for what has happened in Chechnya and the subsequent crisis in Moscow...

Let's examine just how much the Russians are to blame, and whether the Chechens deserve independence.

Here is a link to the Chechen Timeline

From there you can scoot around and glean as much info as you like so as to prepare your stance.

OK, so maybe they have a lot to be angry about especially after Stalin - but what about when they gained de facto independence?

It seems that to my mind that they weren't content to stay within their borders - Both times the Russians invaded was because of border incidents and actions to the detriment of Russian security.

The second time around was far worse as after the Chechen govt slipped into anarchy, bombs were set off in Moscow and serious attempts were made to destabilise neighbouring Dagestan!

Much is made of the estimated 200,000 civilians that have died in this conflict - but how many of those are at the hands of the Russians, and how many are at the hands of the Chechens with their purges of ethnic Russians and imposition of their harsh Sharia laws?

So, off you scuttle and read up on the situation and come back and post your responses...

[JCG]

If they had gained completely legal and not just de facto independence around 1991-2 like the other states that split from the USSR, things may (or may not) have been better, but that would be pure especulation...

As a people they would certainly deserve independence in theory, but in practice, they won't get it, there's just too much bad blood between them and the current Russia by now...

[Lord Merciless]

Not only don't they deserve any independence, but their criminal mafia culture should be thoroughly eradicated.

[orange]

I voted yes, in that, free elections should be held determine what people of Chechnya want. If the majority want to be independent, they should be independent.

[Bosh]

Not only don't they deserve any independence, but their criminal mafia culture should be thoroughly eradicated.

So their resistance to Russian oppression is sufficient excuse for continued Russian oppression. Joy.

[Zero]

when will we stop enforcing nationalism and move toward achieving globalization....

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by orange
I voted yes, in that, free elections should be held determine what people of Chechnya want. If the majority want to be independent, they should be independent.

Guess you were on the side of the CSA, huh?

[Ramo]

Of course they deserve independence. Chechens clearly want it, and Russia has been committing horrendous atrocities in Chechnya.

[Urban Ranger]

I thought they had declared independence in 91 or something like that? Russian military actions seem to be a response to Chechen attacks after that.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ramo
Of course they deserve independence. Chechens clearly want it,

And what could you know about this?
For you what bandits wants and what Chechen people wants is the same. You beleive to terrorists. You think that terrorists who hiding in your countries represent will of all Chechen people. You think they supported by Chechen population. All this is bull****.
Right now, at this moment in Chechnya several thousands people are talking on several meetings. Do you know what type of slogans those Chechen people have? "Maskhadov go away from Chechnya" "No more Vahhabism, no more terrorism"
People want peace, but not to be robbered by those bandits which you consider as representatives of Chechen people.

and Russia has been committing horrendous atrocities in Chechnya.

Typical bull**** propaganda and fairy tales created especially for silly (from their point of view) Westerners who still see Imperial monster in Russia and who prefer to believe in such propaganda, even if this propaganda created by "people" who blow-up apartment buildings and took just born children in hostages in hospitals or took people who come to watch the musical in hostages. Fine, you prefer to trust to those "people", then trust to us.
We will never be freinds then.
I saw a lot of articles about American atrocities in Afghanistan, how your soldiers are torturing people here, how they torturing imprissoned Taliban memebers, etc. But I can determinate where is true and where is propaganda. Because earlier I saw absolutely the same articles about Russian atrocities in Chechnya. It's the same bull**** created in the same propaganda factory. But what consider your soldiers you believe is lie, and what consider Russian soldiers you belive is true. Great. Just ****ing great. You prefer to believe to Islamic terrorists then to people of democratic country.
They just killed 67 people, and thanks to God and Russian specnaz that this number only 67, because in case of explosion more then 800 hostages including children could be dead now.
What else should happen before you'll understand to whose lies you beleive? They are terrorists, TERRORISTS, not rebel or freedom fighters. They don't represent will of Chechen people. They represent will of world wide Islam extremism a Vahhabite teachings, they represent a will of people who dream about united Fundamentalist Islamic state.
The people who call your country, YOUR Ramo, as their most hated enemy.
And you still can't see that we have a common enemy.

[The Mad Monk]

Serb, a lot of us do see.

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by JCG
If they had gained completely legal and not just de facto independence around 1991-2 like the other states that split from the USSR, things may (or may not) have been better, but that would be pure especulation...

Actually Chechnya was not in itself a separate state of the former Soviet Union, but a small part of 'Russia' (RSFR I think?) itself. A part that Russia conquered in 1858.

The political equivalent would be like the US giving Mexico back all the territory it conquered in a most underhand way in, oh around about the same time (1846-48)...

So, for those who have voted for Chechen independence - you can see where I'm going with this...

[Sonic]

MOBIUS, no it wouldn't be political equivalent since USA didn't annexed whole Mexico, just a part of it, while Chechenya doesn't has independence at all. Everybody who voted no are very cruel. Most of them doesn't know what is tio live in occupied country anyway, especially when it is occupied by Russians.

[SlowwHand]

What are you suggesting there, Mobius?
To keep the story straight, Mexico didn't give do-dah.
Not suprisingly maybe, I vote Chechnya should have their independance.

[Dauphin]

Originally posted by orange
I voted yes, in that, free elections should be held determine what people of Chechnya want. If the majority want to be independent, they should be independent.

How small can a denomination get when it comes to declaring independence in your opinion?