Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

[orange]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
Guess you were on the side of the CSA, huh?

Actually no, because I don't feel they had a legitimate claim in that case. It's not like the USA conquered the CSA and then later the CSA wanted independence. Chechnya is culturally and religously different than Russia. USA and CSA - not so much.

[orange]

Originally posted by Sagacious Dolphin
How small can a denomination get when it comes to declaring independence in your opinion?

size doesn't matter. It's about the legitimacy of their reasons for independence. I'm not saying that anyone who wants independence from a government can just vote themselves exempt from policies, but if a people or land has been previously conquered yet has retained its identity and has not been assimilated, I don't see a problem (when a substantial number of the people in the area are unhappy with the current system) for said groups to lobby for independence. Peacefully is always best, but you're always going to get nut job terrorists going out and doing stupid things. That should be examined as a matter of that nations internal security, and not to negate the claims of the people who are going about it peacefully.

[orange]

Originally posted by Sonic
Orange, there were already such electons, majority wanted independence. The same happened in other Russian-occupied country, Tatarstan.

I'm aware

[Lincoln]

Another sticky problem that cannot be solved. I tend to agree with Serb but the terrorism will not stop regardless of whether they gain independance or not. Fanatical nuts cannot be pacified. Hitler wanted more breathing room not just Germany. Crazy people are never satisfied. All society can do is try and kill them before they kill more innocent people. Giving them their own country is no more a solution than it would be to give Alaska to the KKK. Eventually they would tire of having no innocent people left to harass and they would launch out for happier hunting grounds. The entire government of Afganastan protected terrorists. Statehood is not necessarily a solution to this problem if fanatics gain power and usurp the will of the people.

[Ramo]

And what could you know about this?

They seemed to be pretty happy when they achieved independence from Russia. Independence is not equivalent to feudalistic fundie thuggery.

Typical bull**** propaganda and fairy tales created especially for silly (from their point of view) Westerners who still see Imperial monster in Russia and who prefer to believe in such propaganda, even if this propaganda created by "people" who blow-up apartment buildings and took just born children in hostages in hospitals or took people who come to watch the musical in hostages.

Huh? I'm not aware Amnesty International or Human Rights Watch was involved in blowing up the apartment buildings or taking the people watching the musical hostage. I'm not "trusting" these people, I'm "trusting" impartial human rights organizations.

From the AI 2002 Report on Russia:

"Violations committed by Russian forces during 2001 included arbitrary detention in secret detention centres and pits in the ground, torture and ill-treatment, ''disappearances'', and extrajudicial executions. "

"Russian forces continued to arbitrarily detain civilians during raids on towns and villages in Chechnya. Detainees were reportedly ill-treated or tortured while held incommunicado. Bribes were so commonly extorted from relatives to secure detainees' release that the act of detention itself often appeared to be motivated by financial gain. Hundreds of people ''disappeared'' after being taken into custody; the mutilated bodies of some were later found, along with the bodies of other unidentified individuals, in more than a dozen dumping grounds and mass graves throughout Chechnya."

"The Russian federal authorities failed to investigate adequately widespread reports of human rights violations in Chechnya."

[spartak]

Originally posted by Azazel
I rather doubt that. If they were cought red-handed , the ones that saw them do it, would not live to tell. After all, the FSB is said to be the organization least changed by the fall of the SU. And the KGB was a very strong organization.

Sorry its true and was widely reported in the press at the time. I don't make statements unless I am sure of them so ;P

[Sonic]

Lincoln, no, the people needs their own country, otherwise terror will never stop.

Each new generation grew up in war will extend the time of war.

[Dr Strangelove]

Wasn't Maskhadov one of those killed last night?

[spartak]

Originally posted by Azazel
I rather doubt that. If they were cought red-handed , the ones that saw them do it, would not live to tell. After all, the FSB is said to be the organization least changed by the fall of the SU. And the KGB was a very strong organization.

It took one google search to turn up

DID FSB BOMB PASSAGEWAY BENEATH PUSHKIN SQUARE?
In their new book, former FSB officer Aleksandr Litvinenko
and historian Yury Felshtinsky also assert that the
Russian security services were behind the apartment building
bombings in Moscow and several other cities in 1999, which killed nearly 300
people and were the proximate cause for the second Chechen war. The authors
include a detailed examination of the events in Ryzan in September 1999,
when local residents and police discovered what they said was a bomb made of
the explosive hexogen in a local apartment building. FSB officials,
including its director, Nikolai Patrushev, subsequently claimed that the
alleged hexogen was only sugar and that the incident was part of an
FSB-organized "training exercise" designed to test readiness. The Ryzan
incident occurred just weeks after the apartment building bombings in the
cities of Buinaksk, Volgodonsk and Moscow. Some observers believe that the
Russian special services were involved in those bombings and that in the
Ryzan incident the special services were simply caught in the act of trying
to plant a real bomb.

More HERE
Scroll down to articule 12.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Azazel
did I already say how much that book sucks?

But it's better than the rest of Clownzy books

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by orange
It's about the legitimacy of their reasons for independence. I'm not saying that anyone who wants independence from a government can just vote themselves exempt from policies, but if a people or land has been previously conquered yet has retained its identity and has not been assimilated, I don't see a problem (when a substantial number of the people in the area are unhappy with the current system) for said groups to lobby for independence.

What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

[Sava]

I'd vote yes only if the Mexicans in Southern California get their own country too. How about the Cubans in Miami, let's give them their own country, too. It's the same bull sh!t story with the Albanians in Kosovo. If you don't like the way the country is run, if you don't want to have your children taught in the schools, if you don't want to be part of the society, than get the **** out of the country.

[Sava]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

Darn, wish I thought of that one, too.

[Nubclear]

Originally posted by Urban Ranger


What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

Thats great.

[Bosh]

What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

If indian reservations want complete independence why not?