Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

[The Vagabond]

As for the German stance, it's just a mixture of idealism and irresponsibility.

[Myrddin]

Lord Merciless - before attacking Europe over the break-up of Yugoslavia, think about what the US did in Kosovo - Albright's War

In order to get rid of Milosovic, the US carried out an aggressive war to break-up Serbia changing the post WWII rules that state borders could not be changed by force

[Ramo]

They had autonomy under the lebed deal. Guess that didn't work out eh?

AFAIK, the Russian gov't has provided no evidence that Chechens were responsible for the bombing of the appartment complex, and I'm not particularly inclined to take the Russian's gov't's word without corroboration. The government isn't exactly the model of humanitarianism or honesty. It's entirely possible that Chechen terrorists were responsible, but I wouldn't accept that with any certainty...

IIRC, at the time of the terract, Russian security agents were caught by the local militia planting a bomb somewhere in Moscow (which they explained away as "testing the security" ).

The majority of Hawai'ians would like to be independen - problem is that they are outnumbered by the other 90% of the population (the US did a good colonisation job!)

Again, I was not aware the Chechens are demanding control of the entire Russian Federation. The comparison isn't analagous.

So, if you're American and want Chechnya independent - you gotta want Hawai'i independent too!

If they want to be independent, more power to 'em! However, it's the decision of all Hawaiians, not just the natives.

BTW Ramo, Chechnya was a mostly autonomous state within Russia - most of the outlying ones usually are IIRC. They certainly had in 1991-94 [...] but they threw it away

Huh? A civil war broke out in Chechnya, and Russia backed one of the sides. How did the Chechens throw anything away?

Do they deserve a third bite at the cherry???

Because some fundie warlords hijacked the country and participated in terrorism, do the Chechen people deserve to be raped, tortured, subject to "disappearances," wantonly bombed, etc.?

The sad thing is, after everything Russia has done in Chechnya, it's questionable whether the warlords will ever lose their grip on power.

[CapTVK]

The lack of proper information or any attempt by some of the posters to do some research in this thread is (as usual) shocking. As a standard I don't even bother reading these sort of threads as they're a big waste of time...personal interpretations and opinions without proper facts are like dum dums, both have hollow points...

You wanted an answer? Here's one that should have been followed two years ago!

234 Ford House Office Building
Washington, D.C. 20515-6460
Rep. Christopher H. Smith, Chairman
Sen. Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Co-Chairman
For Immediate Release

https://www.csce.gov

Media Contact: Chadwick R. Gore
202.225.1901
February 2, 2000

Russian Bombing of Nuclear Waste Dumps
Charged by Chechen Parliamentarians

(Washington, DC) — “The charge that Russian forces have allegedly bombed known Russian nuclear waste sites in Chechnya—one in Grozny and four others outside the city—by Seilam Bechaev and Tourpal-Ali Kaimov of the Chechen Parliament has greatly increased my concern and anxiety over developments in the region,” said Commission Chairman Rep. Christopher H. Smith (R-NJ) at a Commission briefing today.

Mr. Seilam Bechaev, Vice President of the Chechen Parliament and Mr. Tourpal-Ali Kaimov, Chairman of the Budget Committee of the Chechen Parliament, were providing a comprehensive overview of the current situation in Chechnya to the Commission.

“As we meet here today, a devastating war is taking place in Chechnya,” said Smith. “What the Russian Government describes as an ‘anti-terrorist operation,’ has degenerated—if it wasn’t already planned—into a war of destruction against the people of Chechnya. In response to concern from the international community, the Russian government and military simply claim that the conflict is an ‘internal matter’ despite a 1991 OSCE commitment that human rights issues ‘are of direct and legitimate concern to all participating States’ and are not exclusively any country’s ‘internal affair.’ Nothing justifies the shelling of peaceful villages, strafing of buses and killing refugees fleeing from the fighting, setting up ‘filtration camps’ for males between the ages of 10 and 60 under ‘suspicion’ of being guerrillas, and the entire litany of brutal acts by the Russian military that bears no relation to combating terrorism.”

Also participating in the briefing was Commissioner Rep. Joseph R. Pitts (R-PA).

In a written statement submitted to the briefing, House International Relations Committee Chairman Rep. Benjamin A. Gilman (R-NY suggested that “it may be appropriate at this time for the United States to bring a resolution before the United Nations Security Council regarding this brutal operation.”

Bechaev and Kaimov claimed that Arab “emissaries” had conspired with Russia’s Special Services to promote this latest conflict, in which there are over 200,000 refugees and 10,000 dead.

After Mr. Smith pointed out the near-unanimous passage of House Resolution 206 condemning the Russian acts in Chechnya (which Smith acknowledged were “mere words”), he asked what steps the U.S. should take to end this conflict.

Bechaev responded that:

–The World Bank should refuse and withhold funds for Russia;
- An international committee should be arranged with the authority to investigate and negotiate an end to the conflict. (At the November 1999 OSCE Summit, the OSCE participating States, including the Russian Federation, reaffirmed the existing mandate of the OSCE Assistance Group in Chechnya and stated that the assistance of the OSCE would contribute to achieving a political solution to the crisis.);
- Sanctions should be placed upon the Russian Federation;
- Chechen and Russian representatives should meet with a U.S. mediator;
- Humanitarian aid and NGO access to the Chechens should be allowed; and,
- The U.S. should provide support to build an independent democratic government in Chechnya.

I should note that since then the situation in Chechnya has not improved for the better

[Myrddin]

Nuclear waste sites INSIDE the city?

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by MOBIUS

The majority of Hawai'ians would like to be independen - problem is that they are outnumbered by the other 90% of the population (the US did a good colonisation job!)

A bit like the Brits and the Aboregines, eh?

[Sonic]

Vagabond and what would happen? We already have some Chechens because of visa-free regime with Kaliningrad - these people jumped out of trains. Yet currently nothing happened.

[CapTVK]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Nuclear waste sites INSIDE the city?

There " used" to be a Radon production facility somewhere around Grozny.

[St Leo]

What about Native Americans? Will you gladly give up your land if they want independence?

Ever heard of Nunavut?

If one separatist movement is legitimate, then all separatist movements are legitimate. Or at least they can make themselves legitimate.

The Quebec separatist movement is legitimate. It's quite silly but legitimate nonetheless.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by The Vagabond
Actually, I guess, the optimal location for the independent Chechnya would be somewhere between Lithuania and Poland.

Give them Kaliningrad then

[spartak]

cbeast

Originally posted by Ramo

IIRC, at the time of the terract, Russian security agents were caught by the local militia planting a bomb somewhere in Moscow (which they explained away as "testing the security" ).

Evidence of the poverty of debate on 'Poly these days.

Ramo you really are a prize ass! You disagree with me and post the above comment. My original post earlier in this thread was a statement about the FSB trying to plant a bomb in Ryzan - I subsequently posted a link and gave source for this statement. Does noone bother to actually read the thread they post in these days?

[MOBIUS]

Originally posted by Ramo
AFAIK, the Russian gov't has provided no evidence that Chechens were responsible for the bombing of the appartment complex, and I'm not particularly inclined to take the Russian's gov't's word without corroboration. The government isn't exactly the model of humanitarianism or honesty. It's entirely possible that Chechen terrorists were responsible, but I wouldn't accept that with any certainty...

IIRC, at the time of the terract, Russian security agents were caught by the local militia planting a bomb somewhere in Moscow (which they explained away as "testing the security" ).

Yes, it all looks highly suss...

However, there were also then insurgent strikes into Dagestan, numerous hijacks and lots of hostage taking as well - if you'd like to address those too...

Again, I was not aware the Chechens are demanding control of the entire Russian Federation. The comparison isn't analagous.

Funny, last I heard the Hawai'ians only wanted Hawai'i?

If they want to be independent, more power to 'em! However, it's the decision of all Hawaiians, not just the natives.

Ah well that's only because the US did such a good job colonising the place with imported labour and overrunning the local population...

That's why there was that coup in Fiji, and racial flare-ups in Bhutan. The natives are worried that the Indians and Nepalese respectively will become the majorities in their own countries and that they will lose the right to self determination in their own country - one reason why Israel doesn't want the right of return for Palestinian Refugees...

Huh? A civil war broke out in Chechnya, and Russia backed one of the sides. How did the Chechens throw anything away?

By fighting amongst themselves and allowing the situation to arise...

Because some fundie warlords hijacked the country and participated in terrorism, do the Chechen people deserve to be raped, tortured, subject to "disappearances," wantonly bombed, etc.?

Some???

More like a whole f*cking army of them!

Where were the Chechen forces to put down this lawlessness occurring in their own country? They themselves had descended into the general anarchy itself, it would appear...

I agree that nobody deserves to be raped, tortured, subject to "disappearances," wantonly bombed, etc.

But then a lot of that has also happened to the ethnic Russians in (or were in) Chechnya - I mean it doesn't take a rocket scientist to realise that if you've got Chechen Terrorists running around hacking the heads off kidnapped Westerners, they're probably not above meting out the stuff you mentioned on the 'invader' civilians...

The sad thing is, after everything Russia has done in Chechnya, it's questionable whether the warlords will ever lose their grip on power.

Personally I think both parties are to blame to a greater or lesser extent - pointing the finger is not going to solve nothing and only serve to extend the suffering of the civilians of both sides in Chechnya.

I think the ultimate goal of Chechnya should be a period of autonomy followed by the possibility of peace. The question is can they be trusted not to export their terror beyond their borders like they've done in the past?

[Shi Huangdi]

Ideally, yes. It is internationally recognized right of all people to self determination. But I think first the Chechens must stop their terrorism, as well as their desire to annex Dagestan.

[Lord Merciless]

Originally posted by Myrddin
Lord Merciless - before attacking Europe over the break-up of Yugoslavia, think about what the US did in Kosovo - Albright's War

In order to get rid of Milosovic, the US carried out an aggressive war to break-up Serbia changing the post WWII rules that state borders could not be changed by force

We prevented another Bosnian tragedie from happening by taking the initiative. You Euros were very supportive in that war, even Germany carried out combat missions.

And it was Clinton who needed to wag some dogs in order to increase his popularity. BTW, you guys love him, don't you?

[Heresson]

Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

Originally posted by Ned


This is all consistent with the government of Chechnya being in bed with terrorists in the first place.

If You are besieged by enemy forces, You can't fight the
terrorism, can You! You are supporting the Russians
because You rightly see a paralell to Palestine here:
demanding from Tchechenians to fight the terrorism while they are fighting for their life is like demanding the same from Arafat while besieging him in his quaters
and destroying all the means He could fulfill your demands.

So it's an inhumane islamic regime they want?

No, they don't want islamic regime. They want independance.

Give them Kaliningrad then

My thought exactly... But it should be Polish...

Funny, last I heard the Hawai'ians only wanted Hawai'i?

But You forget that Tchechenians actually are a majority in Tchechenia - well, Russians try to change it now.

one reason why Israel doesn't want the right of return for Palestinian Refugees...

There's a difference between immigrating and returning after being banned.

Chechens must stop their terrorism, as well as their desire to annex Dagestan.

Tchechen gouverment does not support terrorism.
It doesn't want to annex anything, too.