Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

[spartak]

What a propagandist thread this has become. Lets be honest there is no way on god's earth that the Russian people would allow any leader to give Chechnya independance. Too many kids have died in defence of it to make that a possibility and that is before we even consider the geo-political implications of such a move. Chechnya had effective autonomy under the peace deal that Alexander Lebed struck at the beginning of Yeltsin's second term and was not exactly doing a grand job of showing how responsible they were under such an arrangement. The current Chechen war was engineered by the Kremlin to ensure they controlled the succession to Yeltsin and Putin was put in place because he was prepared to live with teh consequences of that act.

There has been a lot of discussion of whether the explosions in Moscow that destroyed several blocks of flats were actual Chechen atrocities or whether the State Security Apparatus blew the blocks up to cement the last bricks in Putin's election.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

Originally posted by Azazel

"An independent Chechnya would probably be a dictatorship of thugs, Muslims, and Muslim thugs, but this can't be helped, and can't be used as a justification for Russian neo-colonialism."

what's the logic in that ?

Take Turkmenistan: a North-Korea-like dictatorship led by a megalomaniac Muslim president -- yet the Turkmens are better off than the poor people of Chechnya.

--

[Az]

you realize that the authoritarian leader of Turkmenistan is a staunch fighter against Islam? plus, Turkmenistan has lots of oil.

[Evil Knevil]

I doubt Russia can crush Chechen resistance without resorting to Stallinist methods of control (genocide, deportation) . But then again, they'll be a thorn in their side if they do let them be free: gangsters, trade, border wars, ethnic russian problems...

So its quite hard to know what do to. I'd try and kill them all if I was in Russia's position, but I've been playing too many wargames recently.

[St Leo]

Then why do I see stuff on the news like women shot and stuff like that?

What's more wrong about women being shot than about men being shot? What special status does being of a particular gender give you? This is the Belgiumming 21st Century; it's time to leave mediaeval biases behind.

I voted yes; Chechnya should be given and guided to poliical stability by a United Nations peacekeeping force.

[DinoDoc]

Re: Chechnya - do they deserve independence?

Originally posted by MOBIUS
People have been quick to condemn the Russians for what has happened in Chechnya and the subsequent crisis in Moscow...

I call BS on your whole entire stance on this issue.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

Originally posted by Azazel

you realize that the authoritarian leader of Turkmenistan is a staunch fighter against Islam?

No, he's not. You confuse Islam with Islamism (political Islam). Niyazov has gained total control of Islam in his country, but so has Saddam in Iraq, or the Saudis in their country. This doesn't make Niyazov a fighter against Islam.

--

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by St Leo
I voted yes; Chechnya should be given and guided to poliical stability by a United Nations peacekeeping force.

The UN couldn't handle Chechnya. The Islamists would have them out in no time.

Independence is not the question, the question is self-determination. The Chechen people did not have self-determination, even when they were independent.

[Oldenbarnevelt]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Independence is not the question, the question is self-determination. The Chechen people did not have self-determination, even when they were independent.

Neither have the Russians.

--

[Pekka]

St Leo, Because it's unlikely that old woman in village is a big threat. Civilian. I'm sorry if I hit some nerv in you saying woman. Woman.. woman woman woman.

[Lonestar]

Originally posted by Taz
with teh consequences of that act.

There has been a lot of discussion of whether the explosions in Moscow that destroyed several blocks of flats were actual Chechen atrocities or whether the State Security Apparatus blew the blocks up to cement the last bricks in Putin's election.

Methinks you read Red Storm Rising too much....

[Az]

did I already say how much that book sucks?

[spartak]

no I haven't. its common speculation in Russia and shortly after the bombs in Moscow an FSB team was caught red handed setting up more in a block of flats in Ryazan. they claimed they were just testing awareness but you don't need real explosives for that do you?

[Az]

I rather doubt that. If they were cought red-handed , the ones that saw them do it, would not live to tell. After all, the FSB is said to be the organization least changed by the fall of the SU. And the KGB was a very strong organization.

[Eli]

Question :

How many Russian soldiers were killed in Chechnia? Official and not official figures.