Rugby - The Ball's Out!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar
Speaking of which -

2. England 31 -d- All Blacks 28

Very entertaining match with some high class rugby. Clive Woodward must be thanking God for Jonny Wilkinson. One of the best #10 performances I've seen for a long time - his chip and re-gather to score the try was pure magic - and England would have been rooted without him. The ABs obviously did lift to make up for the lack of experience, but it was the old hands - Umaga, Howlett, Lomu, Mehtrens in the second half, etc - who lifted the most to do the most damage. Some of their backline work was magical, blowing holes in the English defence. OTOH, no defence in world rugby would contain some of those backs in that sort of form. The England backs, by comparison, seemed to lack imagination and/or invention. But it's a tough comparison. Both teams would crucify the Wallabies in the situation in which they currently find themselves.

Darnit. I just get back from a well-deserved ( ) holiday and this happens. Sheesh. Your summary though pretty much agrees with both an e-mail I got from a friend in the UK and the planetrugby article, both of whom saw it as an utterly enthralling match that boded extremely well for the upcoming WC.
(I'm allowing my sense of altruism to rear its ugly head here, rather than looking for a slightly silvered lining to an otherwise cloudy day, ... honest. ).
I did manage to catch the televised Aus-Ire match though - another shocker of a result although the Wals were pressing for much of the second half.
In hindsight I should probably be glad I wasn't around as my pot of civ gold would certainly have depreciated much further.
Still a nice match to watch if one tends to go for the underdog though.

BTW, Eddie Jones came up with an interesting statistic yesterday. Apparently close to 80% of Tests are won by the home team. I wonder what that means.

I would tend to wonder exactly how many matches/countries went into this statistic ...
Given the traditional differential in the quality of some of the upper echelon nations (NZ, Aus, RSA ... etc) over the rest it would need a rather large sample size to overcome this. I don't know about too many of the others but the AB's have generally been favoured to win against most opponents - whether playing on tour or at home ... and, by and large, have done so. If the same holds true for Wallabies, Boks, Pumas ... against all else but those in the same league then an average 80% win rate at home sounds quite extreme.

[Havak]

It must be fun to hear the "Marseillaise" at Twickenham.

Lets face it is fun to hear that anytime.

The crowd respected the anthem Saturday but as I’m sure Andydog will attest they drowned the Haka with a lively chorus of ‘Swing Low’. Dis-respect? I didn’t read it that way – more as a lively response to the challenge.

He watches too many re-runs of "Lost In Space".

Until, of course, the incessant tweeting deafens you and you can't hear it anymore

Personally I thought he had lost his whistle on Saturday – and that is your most pedantic official?

terrific tactical kicking by their #10 and fierce defence

Ronan O’Gara. Otherwise known as McCrae’s best mate. he has been struggling to get past Humphries but, given his chance, didn’t he use it well?

Edit. It turns out Owen Finnegan has dislocated the shoulder that has already been reconstructed. Minimum six months on the sidelines, possibly the end of his career.

I saw him leave the field, I had no idea it was so serious. I’m sorry to hear that – the odd red mist incident aside he has filled the green and gold shirt well.

The England backs, by comparison, seemed to lack imagination and/or invention

Put your finger right on it I think. Compared to the clinical incision we saw from the men in black our backs squandered far too many good positions.
And oh my god – Howlett – I have never seen anyone skin Robinson like that! It was such a relief to see him make the tactical mistake that let Cohen in. He should never have backed your fullback against Cohen – big strong lad that Saints player.

Havak - you'll be gladdened to hear that, prior to the match, Phil Kearns called England "probably the world's best team - or, if not, right up there". BTW, I was particularly impressed by your #6, a Leicester chap, apparently.

Lets settle for right up there for now. The game should have been killed off by 60 minutes but there was a mini-choke I’m afraid – they sat back and let the ABs come which lets face it is pretty damn suicidal. Having said that it does appear the lads who pulled on the Black shirts deserved the chance – they were in superb shape and form. I doubt the ‘first choice’ XV is confident in getting the shirts back?

That’s Lewis Moody btw Finbar – I find it terrifying how fearless he is putting his body on the line to be honest. Definitely a bright young thing. And better yet in his absence Kronfeld scores the winning try for Tigers – not a bad weekend for me all round.

Wilkinson is really coming of age isn’t he? We should be savouring the meeting of styles with Larkham really. I’ve also seen enough of Australia to know when they seem most vulnerable is when they are most dangerous so you will not find me taking anything for granted!!
I have to say as well I am counting my lucky stars that I still made a net gain despite losing my England bet!!!

It's a pity it doesn't happen here because it creates a wonderful atmosphere.

Maybe a concerted effort by the hardcore fans could change it – but then inertia is a hard thing to overcome.

both of whom saw it as an utterly enthralling match that boded extremely well for the upcoming WC

Although most of we die hard England fans have taken on board how much harder it will be to match the ABs in Australia I can assure you. No one who knows the game is getting carried away. I would rather avoid the All Blacks in the second pahse games I think – so it’s essential we beat the Boks well in a fortnight to set a marker.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Personally I thought he had lost his whistle on Saturday – and that is your most pedantic official?

Yes, I thought he was surprisingly benign, particularly with some of the offside play. It could be, too, that he struggled to keep up with some of the blindingly quick play.

Ronan O’Gara. Otherwise known as McCrae’s best mate. he has been struggling to get past Humphries but, given his chance, didn’t he use it well?

That was the guy McCrae jobbed? I'd forgotten the name. Pity he hadn't cut off the bloke's kicking leg.

I saw him leave the field, I had no idea it was so serious. I’m sorry to hear that – the odd red mist incident aside he has filled the green and gold shirt well.

Owen was either retiring or toddling off to a club in Ireland - the gag before the game was that half the crowd were his rellies - after the WRC. They're now saying 7-9 months out of the game, which rules out next year's S12. I don't think we'll see him back, sadly.

Put your finger right on it I think. Compared to the clinical incision we saw from the men in black our backs squandered far too many good positions.

They don't seem to play with the same assurance as the forwards. There's obviously talent (and speed) there, but I couldn't work out who was managing them.

And oh my god – Howlett –

Isn't he terrifying? Give him half a yard and you're history.

Cohen – big strong lad that Saints player.

And quick. He looks enormous. How big is he? 6' 2"? (Thank God I can use real measurements instead of this metric twaddle!)

The game should have been killed off by 60 minutes but there was a mini-choke I’m afraid – they sat back and let the ABs come which lets face it is pretty damn suicidal.

I don't think England sat back. Those AB backs are impossible to contain when they're given an inch. BTW, it was interesting to watch how they exploited Lomu - apart from one spectacular charge down the wing, mainly within 15-20 yards of the line where his strength more than made up for his lessened speed.

Wilkinson is really coming of age isn’t he? We should be savouring the meeting of styles with Larkham really.

Fascinating contest. They both achieve much in entirely different ways.

I’ve also seen enough of Australia to know when they seem most vulnerable is when they are most dangerous so you will not find me taking anything for granted!!

Mmmm. As I said, on the form against Ireland, they will be crucified next Saturday. The skill level is dreadful, the confidence must be way down. It's disturbing to see how far back Larkham is receiving the ball from Gregan. It's even more disturbing that Gregan left the ground straight after the match to fly home for the birth of his second child, will turn around and fly straight back again for the match against England. That is not preparation for a Test match.

The whole tour is taking on the form of a kock-up. They left Phil Waugh behind because they thought he wasn't rugby fit (having played 3 rounds of club footy after his injury) and took David Lyons who was bothered by a hip/thigh injury which they hoped would recover. It hasn't, and probably won't by the end of the tour. Matt Rogers - the player Eddie was most keen to test in various possies against international opposition - is likely to return home with his rib cartlidge injury having played once against the Pumas. And two players will have made home and return trips to attend childbirths.

Sometimes I wonder.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
I know what you mean. I've heard the singing but never experienced it first hand. It doesn't happen here. I remember discussing this with Havak once before. We have no tradition of that sort of singing here, possibly because the game has never been as big here as it is over there. It's a pity it doesn't happen here because it creates a wonderful atmosphere.

When are you leaving Australia for France ?

[Havak]

Yes, I thought he was surprisingly benign, particularly with some of the offside play. It could be, too, that he struggled to keep up with some of the blindingly quick play.

That’s understandable, it was hard to keep up with it just watching at times.

I have to ask the obvious – who did you feel were the worst offenders on the offside laws? I do feel that the men in black were aware of all the variants of offside but had decided they clearly applied only to other teams.

I also admit I saw us infringe offside several times. We weren’t quite as blatant at flying into the sides of rucks though?

One thing I thought Kaplan was poor at was policing straight throws in the line out – some (both sides I concede!) we absolutely shocking. It’s pure irony that the AB ball stolen by Kay was their best throw of the entire afternoon.

It is very difficult to spot offside reliably on a TV screen it has to be said – but lineouts are easier – and generally if the man is reaching behind him to take ball it probably was not straight?

Pity he hadn't cut off the bloke's kicking leg.

Further irony in the fact he has struggled with his form since that tour – and came good for your visit.

I don't think we'll see him back, sadly.

If it needs a second re-construction then for his own sake he might be better calling it. A third might cripple him permanently.

It’s going to be a real scratch set of loose forwards for you on Saturday then?

They don't seem to play with the same assurance as the forwards. There's obviously talent (and speed) there, but I couldn't work out who was managing them.

You have a knack of fingering the problems. Wilko is becoming a fairly good midfield general but the back line oftens looks like it has no cohesion. I was also surprised Robinson was kept quite so quiet in such an open match. I feel Stimpson might have been the better option – definitely not as fast but he reads the game better defensively – he may well have been in better position for the Howlett break-away as Robinson was looking for the offensive option on the other wing.

Isn't he terrifying? Give him half a yard and you're history.

Utterly terrifying. He impressed me far more than Jonah did despite the tries the giant scored.

And hell I have to mention it but grounding the ball on the opposing players leg generally doesn’t score you know.

Before anyone pounces on me I stated to the partisan crowd in the bar at the time that the move deserved the try despite Jonah messing up the actual grounding of the ball.

And quick. He looks enormous. How big is he? 6' 2"? (Thank God I can use real measurements instead of this metric twaddle!)

Spot on – 6’2” and very nearly 16 stone. Huge for an English wing, if somewhat smaller than the odd All Black.

I don't think England sat back

Perhaps just my paranoia – but I watched them after squandering a couple of good field positions around 60 minutes and I thought I saw the mental click into ‘choke’ mode. I wonder how the forwards felt at 60 mins – they had secured the lions share of possession at that point (about 65%) and the backs were not really exploiting it – the “English disease” still alive and well there?

You are right about Lomu – he was used to draw in defenders in the 22, and it worked very well.

I’ve just read Larkham is a doubt for the weekend because of a hamstring injury. The butchers bill for this tour is becoming very costly?

I see Gregan arrives back late Wed so he gets to attend one training session and the Captains run? As you say not ideal preparation. Perhaps he is good enough to ride it however. And that is terrible news about Rogers – the chance to contrast him and Robinson was an enticing one.

I’m starting to wonder what kind of line up we will see to be honest?

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
One thing I thought Kaplan was poor at...

One of our regional newspapers said Mr Kaplan was definitely the only bad actor on the field.

[Havak]

That is a very nice turn of phrase.

I will keep my fingers crossed that both Toulouse players register tries again on Saturday. I think it will be a sterner test than the Boks provided you.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
I will keep my fingers crossed that both Toulouse players register tries again on Saturday. I think it will be a sterner test than the Boks provided you.

I agree with you, two things will make the test harder, the All Blacks are a better team than the Boks (at least I hope for them) and the Stade de France is a pretty but cold stadium where the support of the crowd is lessened by its open structure.

Whatever the conditions, I think the AB will have some news of the two "Toulousains".

[Caligastia]

Well I got to see the game, and I didn't have to pay $20.

The pub had it on tape, and as it wasnt live there was no cover charge.

The only thing I missed was being able to hear the game. Sometimes it can be helpful to listen to the commentators to find out what the ref's call was.

What a fantastic game! I think England were lucky to get away with the win. They deserve it, but wow, what a close game. Although we lost I am very happy with the All Black's performance. Jonah seems to be back on form, and Ben Blair had a great game too. New Zealand certainly have plenty of great players to choose from. I think Mitchell made the right decision when he selected this team.

England also played extremely well. Wilkinson's chip kick over for the try was awesome. I think its pretty much guaranteed that they will win their RWC pool. As for the final, I think its going to be England v NZ.

I was suprised to learn of Australia's demise at the hands of Ireland, especially by 9 points! I saw a little bit of the game, but it didn't look too exciting, and the wife was getting antsy by then...

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


I agree with you, two things will make the test harder, the All Blacks are a better team than the Boks (at least I hope for them) and the Stade de France is a pretty but cold stadium where the support of the crowd is lessened by its open structure.

Whatever the conditions, I think the AB will have some news of the two "Toulousains".

Unfortunately it doesnt look like there is any way I will be able to see any of the French games. Even the satellite company isn't broadcasting it here.

Perhaps its time for a trip to France.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Perhaps its time for a trip to France.

You should rent a house in Toulouse with the Finbar family, your wives will talk together while you look at Rugby on TV or go to the "Stade des Sept Deniers" to see the Stade Toulousain and its incredible supporters.

[Havak]

Whatever the conditions, I think the AB will have some news of the two "Toulousains".

I am certain the ABs will know they are there at some point.

It’s going to be an interesting game all right.

I think Mitchell made the right decision when he selected this team.

There’s no arguing with that. It’s not a given that the missing players will get the shirts back I suspect. I am grateful McCaw and Jack were absent on reflection however.

England also played extremely well. Wilkinson's chip kick over for the try was awesome

Good awareness of the fullback not being there on his part. Perhaps the most pleasing thing was all the tries were quality scores. Not a single pack-pushover job in sight. Rugby almost at it’s very best, I hope the remaining fixtures maintain this standard.

As for the final, I think its going to be England v NZ

Now that would be tasty – and it might even be possible to get tickets for a final not involving the Wallabies?

It’s a long way away yet of course.

I'm thinking straight win for the France-NZ game???

And for the England-Australia game...???

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


You should rent a house in Toulouse with the Finbar family, your wives will talk together while you look at Rugby on TV or go to the "Stade des Sept Deniers" to see the Stade Toulousain and its incredible supporters.

Sounds like a great plan.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
There’s no arguing with that. It’s not a given that the missing players will get the shirts back I suspect. I am grateful McCaw and Jack were absent on reflection however.

I would have liked to see them match up to the english forwards though.

straight win for the France-NZ game???

Sounds ok to me.

And for the England-Australia game...???

I think the aussies should have a 7 1/2 point start.

[Havak]

I would have liked to see them match up to the english forwards though

Well there is that

I did think your scrum came under enormous pressure at times, it’s very much to your credit that didn’t kill the game for you.

Now you know those tricky Aussies – all the injuries and the lost game might be psychological ploys by Jones?

The margin would be better kept inside a converted score for me – after all we don’t know if we will see the same Australia, or indeed the same England.