Rugby - The Ball's Out!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
OTOH, Mr Mehrtens possibly needs to think before he speaks. Forwards running like backs would be huge bonus. Backs running like forwards would be a dismal sight.

A strange one at the very least.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Frankly, I think it's long overdue for Tamerlin and LDiCesares to go down on bended knee to Havak to thank him for: (a) taking rugby to France in the first place; and (b) teaching the French how to play the game.

Rugby is truly one of the most important discovery that came from the other side of the Channel.

Some say treachery has also been invented by the british but those slanderers are people of ill repute whose rants shall not been listened at all by well educated beings like us.

That aside, it was a truly fascinating history lesson. I hadn't realised, amongst other things, the importance of French rugby to French politics - French rugby l*****, too, for that matter. (Personally, I would rather the two games had swapped political sides, but that wasn't to be) They covered the classic club final between the two teams (I've forgotten the names) representing the capitalists (Michelin-backed) and the socialists.

I knew the history of the french Rugby is somehow tied to politics but I must admit I'am largely ignorant of the details.

I only wish I'd taped the episode.

I only wish I could tape this kind of series in France.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Frankly, I think it's long overdue for Tamerlin and LDiCesares to go down on bended knee to Havak to thank him for: (a) taking rugby to France in the first place; and (b) teaching the French how to play the game.

Rugby is truly one of the most important discovery that came from the other side of the Channel.

Some say treachery has also been invented by the british but those slanderers are people of ill repute whose rants shall not been listened at all by well educated beings like us.

That aside, it was a truly fascinating history lesson. I hadn't realised, amongst other things, the importance of French rugby to French politics - French rugby l*****, too, for that matter. (Personally, I would rather the two games had swapped political sides, but that wasn't to be) They covered the classic club final between the two teams (I've forgotten the names) representing the capitalists (Michelin-backed) and the socialists.

I knew the history of the french Rugby is somehow tied to politics but I must admit I'am largely ignorant of the details. The Michelin-backed team can only be Montferrand (more exactly the "Association Sportive Montferrandaise" or ASM).

I only wish I'd taped the episode.

I only wish I could tape this kind of series in France.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin


Rugby is truly one of the most important discovery that came from the other side of the Channel.

Along with Spotted D*ck, I'd say they're the only important discoveries to come to you from the other side of the Channel.

Some say treachery has also been invented by the british

They have a copyright on it.

I knew the history of the french Rugby is somehow tied to politics but I must admit I'am largely ignorant of the details.

It got a bit complex at times, but I'll try to summarise it.

The Poms brought rugby to France. The French wanted it - at least the French elite did, because they admired the gentlemanly, honourable aspects of it - and the Poms brought it. Clubs like Racing France were established and the game was, initially, largely one for the elite. Pierre de Coubertain - I'm not sure of the spelling - of Olympics fame was a key figure in establishing and promoting the game as a truly amateur, spiritually pure pastime.

The game quickly spread. It particularly took on in the South West - in the hamlets, villages and towns - which could never be called elite. So the first (as it were) schism developed - the elites from around Paris -v- the rurals from the South West. There was, for example, mild outrage in Paris when Bordeaux was the first non-elite team to win the National Championship in 1899. Over the next few decades, the teams from the South West (and adjacent regions) did very very well.

Skip forward in time a bit. Here's where I get a bit vague in the timeline and details. In the 1920s-1930s, shamateurism was rife. One of the French rugby greats had gone to England, played professional L***** and brought the game back to France. Because rugby - in parts of the country - still retained an elite edge to it, L***** was adopted by the Leftists. But the schism between Left and Right translated into rugby too, with the classic National Championship final - that I referred to in the last post - taking place. It was ideology -v- ideology as much as a rugby match, and the Leftists won.

Second World War. France was occupied. The Vichy government (effectively) banned L***** (because of its Leftist connections) and promoted - you could also say exploited - rugby as the national game in an attempt to "unify" the country.

Post Second World War. With the Vichy government gone, interestingly, rugby didn't suffer from its association with the Vichy. The structures they put in place remained, the game prospered. But L***** never recovered. (Thank God!)

That's sort of a summary. The episode also touched on racism in French rugby - it was sometime in the 1960s or 1970s (I think) - before a team with a black player won the National Championship. Racism was also one of the reasons - not a major one - that one of the historians said was the reason s***** gained such a strong foothold and eventually - arguably - overshadowed rugby. French soccer teams were as black as they were white - something which infuriated Jean Le Pen, amongst others - while rugby remained predominantly white.

Tamerlin - there's a good chance FoxSports will replay the episode sometime this week - they seem to repeat everything else endlessly - so if I see it in the program schedule I'll tape it and send it to you. I'm sure you'd find it totally fascinating.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
They have a copyright on treachery.

Don't forget I have added educated people like us should not pay any attention to this kind of rumors spread by people of ill repute.

It got a bit complex at times, but I'll try to summarise it.

Thanks for the summary, it's really interesting.
The opposition between L***** and Rugby was linked to politics but I didn't knew politics influenced so much the development of Rugby in France.

About Rugby and the Vichy government, the french championship has not been played for the whole duration of the second World War (as it has already been the case for the first World War) and was replaced by a challenge I have forgotten the name (the name is wrote on the Brennus Shield), as far as I can remember the Stade Toulousain has won at least once this competition.

About S***** overshadowing Rugby partly (even in a very low extent) because of racism, I'am a bit dubitative. Though I actually believe the French Rugby has been more reluctant to accept black coloured players in their teams than S***** and that it has not helped the French Rugby in any way, the reason why S***** is dominating Rugby is that it has accepted professionalism far earlier than Rugby, thus allowing people to live from their sport, and has adopted simpler rules early in its history. I think these reasons are also valid for England.

Tamerlin - there's a good chance FoxSports will replay the episode sometime this week - they seem to repeat everything else endlessly - so if I see it in the program schedule I'll tape it and send it to you. I'm sure you'd find it totally fascinating.

Deep in yourself Finbar, you are a good man.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
people of ill repute.

A tough but fair assessment of an England supporter.

About Rugby and the Vichy government, the french championship has not been played for the whole duration of the second World War (as it has already been the case for the first World War) and was replaced by a challenge I have forgotten the name (the name is wrote on the Brennus Shield), as far as I can remember the Stade Toulousain has won at least once this competition.

They didn't mention the Challenge. Toulouse got a couple of mentions, but nothing specific. Oh! Something else I did learn - Lourdes had a champion team for number of years! I had no idea. I've been there. Weird place.

About S***** overshadowing Rugby partly (even in a very low extent) because of racism, I'am a bit dubitative. Though I actually believe the French Rugby has been more reluctant to accept black coloured players in their teams than S***** and that it has not helped the French Rugby in any way, the reason why S***** is dominating Rugby is that it has accepted professionalism far earlier than Rugby, thus allowing people to live from their sport, and has adopted simpler rules early in its history. I think these reasons are also valid for England.

I think you're right. The historian didn't say it was a major reason, just a factor along the way in that it represented - for rugby - a lack of progressive thinking.

Deep in yourself Finbar, you are a good man.

But Sssshhhhhh! Don't tell Havak!

[Havak]

do you mean the comp is on hold till the fall internationals are over?

In a way, but not exactly a cause and effect there. It all highlights our messy season here. The European pool stage is played in three blocks of games. The second block takes place in early December. But that isn’t worked around the Internationals because our League program continues through the internationals. I’m not kidding, Tigers play Saints (local derby rivals) the day of England’s match with the All Blacks. But the game kicks off early so fans can run into the bar and watch the England game on TV. Considerate isn’t it?

We play the league leaders Gloucester the night before England take on Finbars mob. Although they have had more players called up because of their form they still don’t lose as many as us so I would fully expect them to beat us and take our proud home record in the process (last league game lost at home was December 1997).

This is actually a serious problem for the English game – we play too much rugby. Our top players must be playing almost twice the games a year of their S12 colleagues. It has to be taking a massive toll on their bodies.

I agree. Australia have been known to gloat in this manner. Of course this is never the case with New Zealand, being the true sportsmen we are...

Who are we to disagree.

I think he just has a thing with losing. Thats not necessarily a bad thing though.

Not at all. But it is sometimes better to hold ones thought internally until the adrenalin has gone?

He so much reminds me of Healey it is scary.

The 16th is my birthday, so I am hoping for a birthday gift from the All Blacks in the form of a victory.

I deeply regret the only present you get that day will be from England across the channel.

I’ll be honest up front and let you know whilst I like the ABs and the way they play the game I will be backing France. Surprised huh?

Gee. Talk about a way with words.

He doesn’t give the press much since the last witch hunt.

OTOH, Mr Mehrtens possibly needs to think before he speaks. Forwards running like backs would be huge bonus. Backs running like forwards would be a dismal sight.

He meant ‘play’ rather than ‘run’ of course. Unfortunately it changes the meaning significantly as you have pointed out.

The only conclusion I can draw is that Andrew Mehrtens has access to our threads and Havak's posts.

Moi? Gloat? I’m shocked!

And if we are talking bended knees could I remind you we took the game to the colonies as well?

Some say treachery has also been invented by the british but those slanderers are people of ill repute whose rants shall not been listened at all by well educated beings like us.

We didn’t invent it, but we are damn good at it. Guess where we learned the art?

I’m aware there are traditional aspects of French-English relations seen by one side as treachery and the other as pragmatism but they are equally shared out I assure you.

My biggest worry in you mentioning it in jest is Finbar will pounce on it – oh look what happended!

Strangely the BBC have been running a documentary about “Allies at war” these last few weeks and I wonder in passing if the French have any idea how De Gaulle was ,and still largely is, regarded by his wartime allied nations?

Keep your eyes out for it Finbar as it was a History channel co-production I think and should reach the overseas market.

A tough but fair assessment of an England supporter.

You forget that I have witnessed your LCD crowds first hand.

Better behaviour that our soccer chimps by far – but vastly inferior to our rugby crowds. Cast not the first stone…

But Sssshhhhhh! Don't tell Havak!

Like he would every buy such errant nonsense!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
This is actually a serious problem for the English game – we play too much rugby. Our top players must be playing almost twice the games a year of their S12 colleagues. It has to be taking a massive toll on their bodies.

It's time your Players' Union - if such a thing exists - stepped in, as ours did here. I remember quoting the total number of games our players are allowed to play in a season - 30, from memory. Which is why most of the Wallabies haven't played since the Tri-Nations.

He so much reminds me of Healey it is scary.

Except he's a better rugby player.

And if we are talking bended knees could I remind you we took the game to the colonies as well?

Fetchez la vache!

Cast not the first stone…

I cast the buggers regardless.

[Havak]

It's time your Players' Union - if such a thing exists - stepped in, as ours did here

Always trying to. But the almighty pound rules the game here. And the situation is further complicated because RFU, League organisation and players Union are all separate concerns – it’s an eternal triangle.

Except he's a better rugby player.

Not even close. That’s the trouble with subjective opinions isn’t it?

And in any case they are really different positions despite Austin’s current flirting with Fly half. Austin is a far far better wing.

I would take Larkham, Wilkinson and Hodgson above both of them at Fly anyday – Merhtens is flattered by the company he keeps in my opinion. And worse than that he is plain rude most of the time. Maybe he should go to L***** where that belongs?

Why do we need a cow btw? You can worship me after all.

I cast the buggers regardless.

And we try to throw them back.

In other news I see Mark Waugh has thrown his rattle out the pram this week?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Merhtens is flattered by the company he keeps in my opinion.

I think that's a bit tough. One of the best tactical kickers going around. His defence - or lack of the skills - is what counts against him, though, I think.

In other news I see Mark Waugh has thrown his rattle out the pram this week?

Retired? What other option was there? His time had come. He's going to play Sheffield Shield for another couple of years. I hope Darren Lehman enjoys himself because he won't be there for long. There's a young New South Welsman - Michael Clark - a 21 year old who will probably be in the side by the end of the series. Stunning young player, former captain of the U-21 team.

And I've just realised! We have a match on this weekend! Wallabies -v- Pumas. What margin did we agree? 12 1/2? Place your bets!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
We play the league leaders Gloucester the night before England take on Finbars mob...

The problem is the same here in France and some clubs like the Stade Toulousain, the Stade Français, the Biarritz Olympique et le SU Agen are more penalized than the other clubs which are moreover aware of the greater opportunity to win at this time.

This is actually a serious problem for the English game – we play too much rugby. Our top players must be playing almost twice the games a year of their S12 colleagues. It has to be taking a massive toll on their bodies.

There is a debate each year in France and the players and national team coaches are complaining, without any result. Bernard Laporte, the French National Team coach will only have its players gathered together five days before the test-Matches.

Surprised huh?

As far as I'am concerned : no !

I think you will be equally surprised if I tell you I will back England against the SH heretics.

And if we are talking bended knees could I remind you we took the game to the colonies as well?

You then have two reasons to bend knees in front of a subject of Her Gracious Majesty : the Crown and Rugby.

We didn’t invent it, but we are damn good at it. Guess where we learned the art?

Finbar ?

I’m aware there are traditional aspects of French-English relations seen by one side as treachery and the other as pragmatism but they are equally shared out I assure you.

I think this is simply an integral part of politics.

My biggest worry in you mentioning it in jest is Finbar will pounce on it – oh look what happended!

Havak, It was meant to be !

Strangely the BBC have been running a documentary about “Allies at war” these last few weeks and I wonder in passing if the French have any idea how De Gaulle was ,and still largely is, regarded by his wartime allied nations?

It happens I like history and especially the history of the Second World War and I know the allied despised (at the very least) the Général De Gaulle. As far as I can remember, Sir Winston Churchill has tried to isolate this man he thought was an annoying opportunist. The American had even less consideration for this man and they have sometimes even been paranoid about De Gaulle intents.

About Staline, I think he was more than happy to have another jester to throw at the Western Allied Legs.

The attitude of the Allied was such that the Général De Gaulle had to invite himself to the meetings and other strategical talks when he could grab the information in time. Of course this has not been very good for its own reputation.

I'am not very found of the Général De Gaulle which I think was an ambitious man with a petty mentality but I must acknowledge the fact that he was deeply in love with its country he held in the highest regards and that he worked, even if the results can be criticized, for the greatness of France.

One thing should be noted, before WWII western generals thought armored vehicles should only be used as infantry support like highly mobile artillery batteries integrated into infantry units. In a book published a few years before the Second World War, the Général De Gaulle recommended to gather amored vehicles in independent units, to use them independently and advocated the reorganization of the French Army.

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar
Fetchez la vache!

Sorry Finbar but this time I have some trouble to understand your french quote, "fetcher" is not a verb we use and the english verb "fetch" can be translated in many ways.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin




Sorry Finbar but this time I have some trouble to understand your french quote, "fetcher" is not a verb we use and the english verb "fetch" can be translated in many ways.

Sorry, Tamerlin, it's not real French. It's imitation French It's a line from a film - Monty Python and the Holy Grail. John Cleese plays a French commander of a castle that is under siege from the Poms. He turns and calls to someone: "Fetchez la vache!" (meaning, in imitation French, "get the cow!"). Next thing, a cow is catapaulted over the castle wall at the Poms. Very funny scene from a very, very funny film.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
I think you will be equally surprised if I tell you I will back England against the SH heretics.

And you won't be surprised if I tell you I'd support the French against anyone and everyone ... except the Wallabies.

[finbar]

Tamerlin - are you betting on the Wallabies -v- Pumas? 12 1/2 points start for the Pumas?