Chrétien to step down

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
blackice, it's generally accepeted by everyone that The West was hurt far more by the NEP than the East. You're the one saying otherwise, you have to link it.

But Asher, you have a selective knowledge of those times. You never lived through that period. You never experienced the difficulties faced by all Canadians.

To study the history of that time requires more than just looking at policies and statistics. You need to understand how people perceived the world at that time without benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

Between 1945 and 1972, the Canadian economy was growing strongly, with a few minor recessions. The massive oil price hikes and oil shortages in 72-73 changed all of that. Suddenly inflation, caused by rising fuel prices, went through the roof. Interest rates shot up Unemployment rose. People were being laid off. Thousands of people were forced to walk away from their homes because they couldn't pay the mortgage.

The only area that benefited from the oil crisis was Alberta (BC and Sask to a much lesser extant) and the oil industry. Profits shot up. Lots of jobs were created (but not enough to offset overall job losses in Canada).

The economy remained in stagflation (stagnant growth and high inflation) throughout the seventies. Most people struggled to make ends meet. Many were forced to walk away from their homes. Many lost their life's savings.

After the 79 Iranian revolution, oil prices again shot up causing even more inflation and even higher interest rates. Again, thousands of people were forced to walk away from their homes. Companies laid off staff or closed down businesses.

This is also a period where people believed that we were going to run out of oil and that rising oil prices and the related high inflation would be a fact of life forever.

When the politicians started talking about using controlling the cost of nationally produced oil (something that was quite common), Albertans responded by saying "Let the Eastern Bastards freeze in the dark." IIRC, that was a popular bumper sticker in Alberta.

The Clark government and the Trudeau government were both under extensive pressure to find some solution. Rightly or wrongly, people perceived the times as being desparate. People believed that the Canadian economy was going to collapse unless something was done. It is from this background that the NEP is born.

In hindsight, we know that high oil prices created demand for more efficient machines which, when the machines came on line, reduced the demand for oil.

But we didn't know that at that time.

The NEP hurt the Alberta oil industry, but the oil industry damaged the Albertan economy by shutting down as much for a political protest as for business reasons. What happened in Alberta in the early 80s was not much different from what most of Canada had experienced in the preceeding 10 years.

That's the background you need to understand when you talk about the NEP.

[Asher]

Tingkai, I don't need to live through the times to see what happened. In this modern world of ours we keep documents and records of what happen.

When you actually study the NEP in depth (they do this even in first year economic classes here), and look at the actions of Trudeau and the resultant effect in the Western economy, it is undeniable that it negatively hurt the economy substantially. The graphs about foreign investment (which basically was what the province was living off of) are particularly stunning, as it's almost a complete vertical dropoff in foreign investment that set us back to pre-1960 levels. All in under a year.

I don't need to understand the background, because it's irrelevant. Anyone with an economics degree could have told you what Trudeau was planning was economically unsound and could have predicted it'd lead to economic disaster -- and it did. Whether he meant good by it and thought he was doing everyone a favor is totally irrelevant.

Trudeau had a history of harshly acting without doing much thought behind it, as shown by the Quebec scenerio you ***** about.

BTW, to turn the tables, I didn't see anyone in Ontario protesting the NEP?

[Loif]

Originally posted by blackice
Chatting with the local CA front runner in the area today.

He claims CA win win this ellection, why?
He claims Martin is too old, he claims no one will forget he was the man behind Cretien's stupidity.

He claims Harper is young and fresh and the population of Canada wants young and fresh.

Ok I guess he is unaware of the age demographics of Canada.

If the PC's bring in Harris I said to him, do you think people of Ontario will vote Harper or good old Mike.
He said well Harper is young fresh he has new views blah blah blah.
I said but Mike is loved in Ontario majority of the people think so.
He said yes but Harper is fresh new ideas blah blah blah

This guy will not go far here

And the prize goes to Blackcie (sorry for the misspelling of your name matey) for completely contradicting himself once again.

**I said but Mike is loved in Ontario majority of the people think so** You just summed up Canadian politics in a nutshell babe. Whoever is the flavour of the month in Ontario and/or Quebec wins the elections.

[Asher]

Oh, and BTW, no one was disputing that the east was going through hard times at the time. What blackice said was the East was hurt just as bad by the NEP. Even you can see this is simply false.

The east was going through a tough time, but the west largely wasn't. Trudeau's solution was to fix that by "balancing" it out, unfairly targeting Alberta. It makes so much sense, doesn't it? You've got a booming sector and a receding sector, why don't you make them help eachother out? Brilliant!

...

Only in the fact of doing this, you've barely helped out the other industries and you've practically crippled that booming industry. What the east had happen over a period of 10 years before happened in about 1 year for Alberta, and it wasn't even a necessity of the market place.

It was an artificially created scenerio from a Prime Minister who didn't know what he was doing and wanted to help out Ontario -- the support of which he depends on to stay in office.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai


But Asher, you have a selective knowledge of those times. You never lived through that period. You never experienced the difficulties faced by all Canadians.

To study the history of that time requires more than just looking at policies and statistics. You need to understand how people perceived the world at that time without benefit of 20/20 hindsight.

Between 1945 and 1972, the Canadian economy was growing strongly, with a few minor recessions. The massive oil price hikes and oil shortages in 72-73 changed all of that. Suddenly inflation, caused by rising fuel prices, went through the roof. Interest rates shot up Unemployment rose. People were being laid off. Thousands of people were forced to walk away from their homes because they couldn't pay the mortgage.

The only area that benefited from the oil crisis was Alberta (BC and Sask to a much lesser extant) and the oil industry. Profits shot up. Lots of jobs were created (but not enough to offset overall job losses in Canada).

The economy remained in stagflation (stagnant growth and high inflation) throughout the seventies. Most people struggled to make ends meet. Many were forced to walk away from their homes. Many lost their life's savings.

After the 79 Iranian revolution, oil prices again shot up causing even more inflation and even higher interest rates. Again, thousands of people were forced to walk away from their homes. Companies laid off staff or closed down businesses.

This is also a period where people believed that we were going to run out of oil and that rising oil prices and the related high inflation would be a fact of life forever.

When the politicians started talking about using controlling the cost of nationally produced oil (something that was quite common), Albertans responded by saying "Let the Eastern Bastards freeze in the dark." IIRC, that was a popular bumper sticker in Alberta.

The Clark government and the Trudeau government were both under extensive pressure to find some solution. Rightly or wrongly, people perceived the times as being desparate. People believed that the Canadian economy was going to collapse unless something was done. It is from this background that the NEP is born.

In hindsight, we know that high oil prices created demand for more efficient machines which, when the machines came on line, reduced the demand for oil.

But we didn't know that at that time.

The NEP hurt the Alberta oil industry, but the oil industry damaged the Albertan economy by shutting down as much for a political protest as for business reasons. What happened in Alberta in the early 80s was not much different from what most of Canada had experienced in the preceeding 10 years.

That's the background you need to understand when you talk about the NEP.

Well damn. A good post. What is this thread coming to?

I can readily grant that the situation in Eastern Canada looked a lot less than rosey in 1979. I just wonder why it seems unreasonable by 'other' Canadians that Albertans would scream about their jobs, their homes and their businesses being sacrificed on the altar of confederation. Is it selfish to object to being driven into bankruptcy to save another from bankruptcy?

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Well that's odd, because the timestamp on your posts are spread out on the issue over a period of 4 days.
That's persistent to me, and it's also whining when you don't like people making fun of your silly comments.

So many lies to deal with. Asher starts by claiming that I have been persistantly whining for "weeks." Now he claims four days. Even then he still lies.

I first commented on the fact that Asher had run off to another site to attack people behind their backs on 25 August. That's when I found out about it.

Nothing more was said until Asher returned to Apolyton. At that point I told him what I thought on 26 August 17:29. The conversation goes back and forth until 27 Aug. 13:29 when I end the discussion.

I make a very indirect reference to Asher's actions on 28-08 when I stated: "If you want to insult me, I couldn't care less, if it is at least done to my face." In no way could that be considered a whine or a complaint.

So Asher, at the very most, my comments about your childish behaviour stretches over three days, not four. But to be more specific, I only complained to you in about four posts over space of less than than 24 hours.

This does not persistant make.

What we actually have here is some political spinning on your part. You're trying to take something for which you are to blame, and spin it to blame me.

And for that you get 10/10 for effort.

Originally posted by Asher
Meanwhile you've now managed to avoid the issues for the most part either because you know you're full of it and want to do some damage control or you were just trolling earlier for fun anyway.

While it is true that I haven't been able to contribute comments as much as I would like (I work for a living and I'm in the process of moving to a new place), I have repeatedly tried to explain some simple concepts which you have chosen to not understand.

Here's a case in point:

Originally posted by Asher
You trolled, they bit, and now you're sitting here accusing other people of taking the low road because they bit your stupid little troll.

NYE claimed that he tried to be reasonable, but was forced to drop into the gutter. I made no accusations about him taking the low road. I showed that he was the first to drop into the gutter. (Or put it another way, just so you understand, there is a difference between accusing someone and pointing out the actions someone has taken.

Secondly, it was not a troll. It was an off-the-cuff remark.

If it was a troll, and I'm not saying that it was, it is surely more than "stupid" and "little".

This thread has hit 16 pages and that's because of the irrational over-sensitive tantrums thrown by a couple of Albertans. As for me, I'm just an innocent bystander.

[Asher]

Why do you guys have so little posts per page?

I have 50 per page, so this is "only" page 8.

And it's not a tantrum, it's mostly blackice arguing with me and nye. That happens in just about every thread that we post in together, it's just that he's so disagreeable in everything he does.

He's either a master DL or a very unique person.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
The east was going through a tough time, but the west largely wasn't.

I wasn't living in the west during this time, but IIRC, only Alberta was doing well because of the high oil prices. The rest of the west was suffering as much as the east.

And many Albertans who were not connected to the oil industry were suffering. Farmers were getting high prices for their products, but the cost of production was also rising.

[Asher]

But the high oil revenues offset the farmer's suffering somewhat, just like today with the $600M farm aid package.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well damn. A good post. What is this thread coming to?

I can readily grant that the situation in Eastern Canada looked a lot less than rosey in 1979. I just wonder why it seems unreasonable by 'other' Canadians that Albertans would scream about their jobs, their homes and their businesses being sacrificed on the altar of confederation. Is it selfish to object to being driven into bankruptcy to save another from bankruptcy?

That's a difficult one to answer.

Is selfish to object to being driven into bankruptcy? No.

Is it selfish to refuse to help others in distress and to make comments like "let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark." Yes.

Did the Albertans have just cause for complaining about the NEP at the time? Yes.

Do they have just cause for continually using the NEP as justification that the east is still out to screw them 20 years later? No.

Is it understandable that the NEP has left a mark on cultural psyche of Alberta? Yes.

Were they justified in saying keep oil prices high regardless of the cost to the country as a whole? No.

Was it understandable for Albertans to want to prosper from high oil prices, even if the rest of the country suffered? Yes.


And by the way NYE, 10/10 for your previous satire weather report. Good to see you've got your sense of humour back.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai

NYE claimed that he tried to be reasonable, but was forced to drop into the gutter. I made no accusations about him taking the low road. I showed that he was the first to drop into the gutter. (Or put it another way, just so you understand, there is a difference between accusing someone and pointing out the actions someone has taken.

Secondly, it was not a troll. It was an off-the-cuff remark.

If it was a troll, and I'm not saying that it was, it is surely more than "stupid" and "little".

This thread has hit 16 pages and that's because of the irrational over-sensitive tantrums thrown by a couple of Albertans. As for me, I'm just an innocent bystander.

Sorry Tingkai. You said some incredibly stupid things on 'page 3' of this thread. Including allusions linking Canadian politics and the FLQ crisis to the Nazis. It was ridiculous, to me.

Also, my response to you was also heavily based on earlier attempts to communicate and observations of other sh!t storm threads.

I have said already, I have observed and experienced too much crap about Alberta in the past here and IRL. I will not remain silent about it.

Trolling and fun are one thing. Tolerating people who truely believe the crap and dance through excuses to maintain bigotry is another.

I am totally willing to bury this and move on. However, this thread and others do form the prism through which others will be coloured. I don't expect anybody to forget what I've posted. I won't totally forget others either.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Tingkai
Is it selfish to refuse to help others in distress and to make comments like "let the Eastern bastards freeze in the dark." Yes.

Even as the "Eastern bastards", as it were, sent your company into Chapter 11 and fed you a pink slip? That's where the attitude comes from, you know.

Do they have just cause for continually using the NEP as justification that the east is still out to screw them 20 years later? No.

You're the one who brought it up and said we deserved it. You bring it up, expect an earful.

Were they justified in saying keep oil prices high regardless of the cost to the country as a whole? No.

You don't think they're justified for leaving the price regulated by the market? Most people wouldn't agree with you that have a clue how economics works...

Was it understandable for Albertans to want to prosper from high oil prices, even if the rest of the country suffered? Yes.

A better statement:
Was it understandable for Albertans to want the market to regulate the market, rather than an outsider step in and strip away profits and drive away foreign investment on top of setting artificial pricecaps to help out people far away?

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Tingkai
And by the way NYE, 10/10 for your previous satire weather report. Good to see you've got your sense of humour back.

Thank you. I chuckled a bit writing it.

[blackice]

Loif I think you missed the point I was making.

What blackice said was the East was hurt just as bad by the NEP. Even you can see this is simply false.

I do not recall saying that. What I believe I said was the east was hurting just as bad at that time. Sorry for your misconception.

unfairly targeting Alberta

Targeting Alberta had jack chit to do with it. This is where you look like a whinner. It had nothing to do with targeting the west at all.

In fact Trudeau and the west were in negotiations for some time before all this. He was trying to get some concessions from the west about supplying cheaper oil to the East because of the stagflation and the global situation. The west told him to take a hike, screw the east, fvck off, fvck the country etc. Trudeau then took the bull by the horns and made it fact.

The oil will help the country stay afloat dispite the objections of an unpatriotic jerk who ruled Alberta at the time. Trudeau felt rightfully so that after the country had supported Alberta with the NOP the least they could do was return the favor with a few years of cheap oil so the people in the rest of the country could survive the gobal situation at the time. So get it right would you....

It was an artificially created scenerio from a Prime Minister who didn't know what he was doing and wanted to help out Ontario -- the support of which he depends on to stay in office.

Completely wrong your lack of history and facts is astounding, but truely an Albertan slant.

Is it selfish to object to being driven into bankruptcy to save another from bankruptcy?

More whinny Albertan diatribe, that is what Alberta was doing to the rest of the country, we had a prime minister with the balls to do something about it.

and spin it to blame me.

Part of the Asher comic book debating style.

it's just that he's so disagreeable in everything he does.

more master twisting by the joker, Asher you have spammed every thread I have ever made. You continuosly post about things you have no idea about. Then you whine when people correct you. Then It is they that argue with you, admit it there would be no arguement if you knew what you were talking about in the first place.

[Asher]

blackice, you're starting to sound a lot like the people who deny the holocaust happened. It's eerie.