Chrétien to step down

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
So if everyone is equally as furious with the Canadian federal government, how come it hasn't changed? I don't care if nobody is happy, I care that nothing is going to change about it.

Anyone older than say 30 would be able to answer this: We're sick and tired about hearing, reading and talking about constitutional change. It seemed like during the 80's, every day there would be a front page story about the latest constitutional crisis or proposal for change: Meech Lake, Charlottetown, the night of the long knives.

So by now most people think: Enough already.

The existing system isn't perfect, but we've been talking about changing the government system for decades and we still don't have an acceptable solution.

[Asher]

The existing system isn't perfect, but we've been talking about changing the government system for decades and we still don't have an acceptable solution.

And yet blackice feels the need to rail on people who aren't going to put up with a government who is unable to fix itself to be acceptable to the majority of Canadians?

[KrazyHorse]

This government wasn't the one that underwent innumerable constitutional crises and failed at resolving; that was Brian Mulroney's PCs

WE have the responsibility of electing a government that will fix itself if we feel it needs fixing.

[Asher]

And the problem with this is the majority of the country lives in a single region, and the majority of that region shares the same political opinion and doesn't really care for the true political diversity of the nation.

Which means the people who feel they need a voice too will continue to "whine" about getting their voice, and the majority in charge will keep insisting they shut their traps and deal with it because 30 years ago they sent us a couple million bucks in equalization payments for two years.

[KrazyHorse]

Say what you like, but a direct district representational system at least doesn't inherently discriminate; it sets up no rigid formulas that lose their sense over time.

Writing "political diversity" (read: "favouring certain political minorities") into the electoral system will almost certainly fall into that trap.

[Asher]

In at least one of the three branches the minorities should be given equal say as the majority, it allows for the protection of that minority while not giving them absolute control. The majority would still dominate the main house, and the minority would only have equal say in the secondary house. Seems fair to me.

[KrazyHorse]

Which minority? Geographic? Remember that "rigid formula" bit?

[KrazyHorse]

And it doesn't seem fair to me. If someone represents 9 million people he should have more say than if someone represents 140 000 people (the honourable sen's from Ont. and PEI?)

[Asher]

Originally posted by Frogger
Which minority? Geographic? Remember that "rigid formula" bit?

Perhaps it could go by "major" party then.

And it doesn't seem fair to me. If someone represents 9 million people he should have more say than if someone represents 140 000 people (the honourable sen's from Ont. and PEI?)

Don't you also think it's not exactly fair to have an entire region's opinion consistently tossed to the side and disregarded for decades on end? You don't think that in order of Canada, as a whole, to be happy, some concessions should be made to ensure Canada stays happy, and not just strictly Ontario and Quebec?

[blackice]

Blackice, this should be fairly obvious to you, but Alberta's government can't do a damn thing about federal policies once they implement **** like Kyoto and have high progressive federal income taxes.

Niether can Ontario, Manitoba, PEI, etc etc etc oh listen...Nope I here no whinning anywhere else. Welcome to a Dictatorial Democracy. You have the right to vote The End....

Um, just what do equalization payments do for a modern day Alberta?

Nothing you don't need it duh! What does it do for Ontario?

Alberta's opinions and votes are marginalized since it's a minority which consistently votes conservative.

And?

The federal government doesn't have to, and doesn't, give a damn what Canadians living in Alberta think simply because it doesn't matter.

Does'nt give a *hit what Ontario thinks either, or PEI or Manitoba, etc etc etc...

Make no mistake about that.

I make no mistake, I believe when the money makers want to make money they will.
The Auto industry is dying here. It will be in India before long, cheaper labor. So this crap about industry like they give a *uck about the people anyway. 10,000 people or more and my kid and her kids will breath easier. That I give a *uck about, you it's greed me it's people's lives. We disagree here big time.

Can you provide a link to that study you've mentioned numerous times without warrant?

In the papers here daily look it up, without warrant...
I do not give a rats ass about 2% I do care about 10,000 people. You dismiss this with the wave of your moronic hand. I truely hope you never get any power over people.

blame Ontario

Because he picked Alberta to pick your ass, it worked way to well.

Stage protests?

Why not it worked for the NEP...

There is no shortage of demand for Alberta

Very Canadian first Asher

Do you know what the definition of hypocrisy is?

Yes 90% of your whining as stated.

hy·poc·ri·sy
hy·poc·ri·sies
The practice of professing beliefs, feelings, or virtues that one does not hold or possess; falseness.
An act or instance of such falseness.

I do pay for my university. I would move south and go to school, but I'd have to pay many times the tuition simply because I'm an out of state student at the public universities. I didn't chose to live up here when I graduated high school, that's just how the cards fell, so I'm going to a public university here to save me thousands of dollars.

Yup better place for sure. So Canada has no such "out of state" or for that matter "out of country pay more clause". So feel free to use our publically paid education system to take your skills out of the country. Then pad the coffers of a foriegn country as graditure for our lack of "out of state charges".

I could get the same damn thing south of the border

See above you make no sense.

Not my choice.

Not my choice tells me Daddy has the purse strings. How old are your anyway?
What you are saying is you have a comfortable house to live in. Bills paid, do not have to work do groceries, etc etc...Now tell me do you have a free education? Your a young guy how did YOU find the cash to go to UNI.?

Not my choice.

I made it very clear in that thread what I meant. You are simply pulling that Asher "I know what you mean but refuse to accept it" act.

politically backwards when electing federal governments is all

Really, ok Asher you have a handle on gobal investments etc in relation to a countries economy. Where would Canada be today had Doris been elected and the same fiasco took place. Which it would have. What somewhere between a third world country and a fourth. Give it a break Asher you are way more intellegent for this tripe.

I'm only half Canadian,

Yes you keep repeating that...Niether is Ontario, PEI, Manitoba, etc etc etc... Maybe we all should move. I know many half Canadians that not only appreciate what they have here but will contribute back to it, the country. They do not have such a narrow, shallow view of things. They are Albertan and could give a rats ass what the feds do. Why? Because they have wealth and power in Alberta and not one *ucking thing the feds do effects them. They love the country, the people, the life, the air quality and thier freedom.
I guess you missed that part.

ap·pre·ci·ate Pronunciation Key (-prsh-t)
v. ap·pre·ci·at·ed, ap·pre·ci·at·ing, ap·pre·ci·ates
v. tr.
To recognize the quality, significance, or magnitude of: appreciated their freedom.
To be fully aware of or sensitive to; realize: I appreciate your problems.
To be thankful or show gratitude for: I really appreciate your help.
To admire greatly; value.
To raise in value or price, especially over time.

don't you think

Nope but I am not a spoiled kid living of daddy either.

Shameful

Yes you are I think canada will be way better of without the likes of you. Some of have the will to change things. Some of us just whine about it. Some of us just run from it. You are the last two. I have two constitutional challenges going to change things. YOU WHINER what are YOU doing to change things.

unity?

You know the thing the majority of Canada has made it clear it wants

How long and where have you lived in the US, blackice

6 months In NY state.

leave Canada

Don't be a moron.

Canada isn't for everyone,

Don't let the door hit you on the way out. Hey why not leave now? Right daddy's purse strings, out of state cost's etc etc etc.

Deal with that and love me anyway

Ok marrage and steady dating are out But your ok,

[Asher]

blackice, I'd like to think you're such an unbelievable moron that even the lefties would be very much ashamed of your "contribution" to this thread.

You've also taken a lot of my non-serious comments as serious. I guess the smilies didn't give it away. Most people are more observant about that kind of thing, but I'm guessing it takes all that concentration already just to get a half-way coherent sentence out of you. It's also pretty amazing you apparently have no concept of how much it costs to go to a state college with out-of-state costs and the rationale behind attending the local college to save thousands of dollars for an equivalent education.

I could respond to that last post, since just about everything you've said is wrong or a troll, but you're starting to bore me now. At first you were amusing, then pathetically amusing, and now it's just pathetic.

So let's just get this out of my way. I'm a bad murderous person who wants to kill 10,000 people a year in Ontario, I'm a bad Canadian, I'm an inexperienced yokel with no life concepts at all while you are a shining example of humanity, and I'm a ****** that just doesn't know anything.

Now that we're in full agreement, I hope you enjoy your stay in Canada while I enjoy my stay in California, where I'm surrounded by other idiot non-Canadians who also want to kill 10,000 people in Ontario.

[Tingkai]

So much garbage to respond to:

Originally posted by Asher
Canada would have survived perfectly fine without it and you know it.

Hardly, as Blackice has mentioned, massive oil price hikes sent a shock through the global economy creating a worldwide recession. Canada was already trapped in stagflation. Interest rates hit 20 per cent, as an article posted by NYE mentioned.

Even without NEP, there would have been massive layoffs in the Alberta oil industry. A lot of people laid off, IIRC, were on the drilling and exploration side. This is a business that does work now for future gains. Nominal interest rates of 20 per cent created a massive cost for such work that made it unprofitable to do at the time.

Ironically, NEP may have helped Alberta in the long-run by creating short-term pain. Albertans work up to the dangers of relying too much on the oil industry and have since made some efforts to diversify their economy (as you so often tell us).

Originally posted by Asher
All of that in the world can't compete with the federal government subtly discouraging foreign investment in the oil industry by even threatening to sign Kyoto, or by their complete disregard for the opinions of Albertans federally.

Everytime any government creates new pollution control laws, the businesses start crying about the sky is going to fall and the economy will collapse. Funny thing is, this never happens.

The auto industry complained left, right and centre when governments started making stricter safety and environmental laws for vehicles. These laws actually forced the auto industry to upgrade their equipment and as a result, the industry is more efficient and competitive.

Originally posted by Asher
I'm one of those people who believe democracy should be about rule of the majority while respecting the rights of the minority. This doesn't happen in Canada, and I don't see why I should put up with it.

Bullocks, there are numerous protections for the minority in the Canadian government system. There have been from day one. Confederation split powers between provinces and the federal government to protect the interests of people within a given province.

Originally posted by Asher
Besides, I'd be a bad American if I stayed in Canada...

No, you would be a smart American.

Originally posted by Asher
It's just that Kyoto doesn't solve the problem.

No one says that the agreement is a miracle cure. It is simply a step in the right direction.

Originally posted by Asher
You do know that countries like China, who use some of the most inefficient factories and pollute A LOT and are developing so they pollute more faster than any other country

That's not true. According to a 1997 UN report, pollution levels have remained constant between 1980 and 1995 (a period of massive economic growth).

The reason for this is that as China develops, it starts to use more efficient means of production that pollute less than the old technology.

For example, instead of people using coal to fuel stoves, more and more are using cleaner natural gas.

On the downside, economic development can create more pollution, such as the pollution created as more and more cars and trucks are used.

Originally posted by Asher
Countries like the United States has refused to sign it because it would substantially hurt the American economy...

No the American government doesn't want to sign it because:
a) The Republicans don't want anything to do with international treaties that they cannot control; and
b) The greed factor. Anything that might affect the massive profits earned by the rich is immediate rejected by the Republicans, even if it creates long-term public gain.

Originally posted by Asher
What I find particularly amusing is Tingkai actually blamed the West for NOT WHINING when the Liberal PM grossly abused his powers, then turning around and *****ing about how the West whines about how the current system isn't right.

My god, you missed the whole point. In 1972, no one said anything when Quebec got screwed, but in the 1980s, 1990s, and 2000, far too many Albertans complain that they're being screwed as if they're the only ones who have ever got a raw deal from the government.

More on this later.

Originally posted by Asher
It's not shallow, it's realistic. The fact is, there's a better job market south for my field than anywhere else in Canada. The fact is, I'll get paid more and pay less taxes down there. The fact is, I'll have a federal government which more or less supports my views.

Actually, what you wrote is pretty shallow. Most people love their country for more than just how much money they can make.

I could understand it if you left Canada to explore the world, or reluctantly, but you seem to be going because of hatred towards Canadians.

Originally posted by Asher
It's another problem Canada has called the brain drain, but the Liberals will sit there and tell you it's all a lie as well.

And they would be right. For every person who leaves Canada to work someplace else, another person moves to Canada to seek new opportunities.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Asher
Don't you also think it's not exactly fair to have an entire region's opinion consistently tossed to the side and disregarded for decades on end? You don't think that in order of Canada, as a whole, to be happy, some concessions should be made to ensure Canada stays happy, and not just strictly Ontario and Quebec?

Read up on your history. The 1982 constitution contains a massive concession to Alberta. It was the Alberta PC government who wanted the Notwithstanding clause, and the evil Trudeau, the man who never listened to the west, (along with all the other premiers, except Quebec) agreed to include this clause that was designed to protect the interests of minorities.

[blackice]

Asher in other words THE END... Your arguement has pasted it's time, it's old news. You have no response to the reality of fact and once again you conceed the frail, hopeless stituation of your dictatorial diatribe.

Welcome to the real world, I hope some sunk in....

NEXT>>>>

All good points Taki, I see you know you Country, politics well

[Tingkai]

Damm, there's a lot more that I would like to comment on, but I'm really busy today.

So I'll just say: Asher you're a young geek and you don't no what you're talking about. (Just kidding).