Should I circumcize my son?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Yet they shouldn't be. Submissiveness isn't a trait, it is the result of social conditioning.

Many psychologists would disagree, many would agree. No one knows for sure.

Personally I'm very submissive IRL, so it might be from social conditioning and it might be a trait, I don't know. I don't see how it matters, because that's who I am.

If I were in a relationship, I'd most likely be submissive. That's one of the main reasons I don't want to be in one.

Maybe he is naturally submissive (it sure sounds like it) as well. That's just how some people are.

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Because you weren't talking about this specific case. You were talking about circumcision in general, and I answered in general. Then you brough specifics into it, and I gave you an example involving this specific.

I was talking specifically to this case, but I should have specified I guess. I would assume people would have figured out I supported circumcision if they were doing it for religious reasons because I made that very clear in my initial posts...

[Imran Siddiqui]

Usually people consider circumcision under religion to be even more barbarious. Who ever said I read all your posts?

[Asher]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
Usually people consider circumcision under religion to be even more barbarious. Who ever said I read all your posts?

If people are doing it out of faith, then that's up to them. It's their family.

When people do it based on things like wanting their kids to look like most other people in the locker room, or off some oft-debunked studies about penile cancer or STDs, then they should figure out that there's no medical reason for circumciscion.

I can't think of a single medical organization in North America or Europe which recommends circumcising newborns for medical reasons, all of the ones I've found say not to.

[SuperSneak]

Originally posted by Asher

So all of those numerous medical journal references with specific points debunking each of the studies linking HIV infection rates to uncircumcised men didn't do it for you? Did you even read them?

From your own source, brain trust (bolds and italics are mine):

Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. In the case of circumcision, in which there potential benefits and risks, yet the procedure is not essential to the child's current well-being, parents should determine what is in the best interest of the child. To make an informed choice, parents of all male infants should be given accurate and unbiased information and be provided the opportunity to discuss this decision.

Hmmmm....ok...that was done. Potential benefits AND risks...seems you didn't read your own source very closely.

It is legitimate for parents to take into account cultural, religious, and ethnic traditions, in addition to the medical factors, when making this decision.

Wow! Again, your source endorses my approach!

If circumcision is performed in the newborn period, it should only be done on infants who are stable and healthy.

Which my son was. Odd. Though your source says that it may be unnecessary, it clearly leaves the decision up to the parents, acknowledging that a number of factors (including medical, social and religious) influence the decision, which is ultimately the parents.
Nowhere does it emphatically caution against circumcision, Asher...only weighs in slightly on the con side, with ultimate responsibility left to the parent.

That's what happened with me and that's what I did.

Guess you need to read your defense more closely before you taint it with personal opinion and cite it as gospel.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by SuperSneak
OK, Tandee...it's pretty obvious you just wanted others to rationalize the decision you already had made. You succeeded! Good for you!

Well, in this case assuming has only made an a$$ of you. I can't prove to you that I hadn't made up my mind yet, I don't care to.

As far as bigots go, your bigotry toward your own husband's religious background is evidence enough for me that you don't know jack! Maybe you should think about what this means to him? Is it his child? I'd think he'd love the fact you came here instead of speaking with him and your doctor about it.

It's not about *his* religion. I don't think any religion is a reason to do something. I used to be Mormon, and was opposed to gay marriage, *even though* it completely defied my own logic. Looking back on this I see how scary it is to draw opinions blindly from your religion. Despite this however, I'm not bitter against my former church, I'm still very good friends with stolid Mormons. I'm not a bigot when it comes to religion, I've just made up my mind about it. And I used logic.

Oh, I forgot, you don't believe in educational institutions...

Completely untrue. I just don't think public education in America is very competent. And I have a very good basis for this. I went there. I'm not opposed to my children going to school, I just don't know if I'll be able to afford private school, and I haven't found one I like yet. You are just assumption-man.

so you must be one of those "doctors are bad" people too.

I *love* and appreicate competent doctors.

And feel free not to immunize your kids...I'm sure Asher has plenty of solid evidence against that as well.

I h-a-v-n-'t d-e-c-i-d-e-d y-e-t. L-i-s-t-e-n t-o p-e-o-p-l-e w-h-e-n t-h-e-y t-a-l-k.

Take your time on that immunization "research"

Well, you can be sure that it will take me farther than one doctor's mouth.

What a twit.

Good then you shouldn't care what I decide to do, and therefore you may stop replying to this thread.

[Asher]

Originally posted by SuperSneak
Hmmmm....ok...that was done. Potential benefits AND risks...seems you didn't read your own source very closely.

I read it word for word. I guess you didn't, since you obviously missed one of the last lines in the conclusions which said the risks outweigh the benefits:

An objective examination of the published findings on circumcision in the scientific literature leads one to conclude that circumcision does more harm than good.

Wow! Again, your source endorses my approach!

Hey, wow, so do I. I've already stated religious reasons are okay by me...

Which my son was. Odd. Though your source says that it may be unnecessary, it clearly leaves the decision up to the parents, acknowledging that a number of factors (including medical, social and religious) influence the decision, which is ultimately the parents.

Of course it's up to the parents...no one said otherwise!

Nowhere does it emphatically caution against circumcision, Asher...only weighs in slightly on the con side, with ultimate responsibility left to the parent.

That's what happened with me and that's what I did.

Guess you need to read your defense more closely before you taint it with personal opinion and cite it as gospel.

Perhaps you should read it all.
It goes through and lists all kinds of problems with circumcision, and even says point blank that it does more harm than good...

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui
And spot on about taking the husband into account.

My son is more important than my husband in this decision. Maybe that is what you have lost sight of.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Obviously, your husband doesn't count. You are despicable.

[Apocalypse]

Of course submissiveness is a result of social conditioning. Traits may play a part, but they are no where near the deciding factor. Look at me. I can change part of my nature drastically based on social conditions.

[Asher]

Not everyone is like you, Apoc, and it's dangerous to assume everyone is who they are because that's how you are who you are (if that makes sense).

Psychologists still debate about it to this day, nature vs. nurture, there is no answer yet, just opinions.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Imran Siddiqui I have a sneaking suspicion that she dumped ck, because he stood up for himself.

Maybe you should ask "ck" and myself about this before you say something like that. We broke up because the long distance thing didn't work for us, and we had been growing apart for awhile. I love him very much and happen to know him much better than you do. As the only person who knows me in real life here, why don't you ask him what he thinks of me?

Well, finkian knows me too, but I don't know if he comes around any more.

[SuperSneak]

Tandee-- Do your existing children get immunized? I hope so.
How do you judge what is competent or not? You aren't a doctor, and, by your own admission, don't have the education to support such assumptions?

I don't need to be interested in your situation as my permission to reply to this thread.

I'm concerned that you are talking out of both sides of your head--you are constantly contradicting yourself in regard to your husband, your children and even your own ability to make an informed decision about anything whatsoever.
I could give a rip about people who would even contemplate not getting their child immunized...that is so freaking backwards and idiotic. It is the kid I'm concerned about...you're so far gone and confused you're beyond hope.

Asher: my son has had no complications due to his circumcision. He's just fine. Time will tell, I guess.
You can't even acknowledge that the very article you quoted makes it very clear that there is no emphatic reason not to, if the parents have cultural reasons or even believe that there may be medical benefit, so I have no interest in debating with you. I made the decision knowing that there could have been direct complications, but weighed that against the possible benefit of lower STD transmission. Since there was no problem with the circumcision, my bet has paid off so far.

I'd also like to point out that once, long ago, the majority thought the earth was flat. They were wrong too.
Just because the crowd tells you something doesn't mean it is true...there is still no hard medical evidence to suggest anything but immediate detriment.

[Apocalypse]

Originally posted by Asher
Not everyone is like you, Apoc, and it's dangerous to assume everyone is who they are because that's how you are who you are (if that makes sense).

Psychologists still debate about it to this day, nature vs. nurture, there is no answer yet, just opinions.

I know not everyone is like me. About a month ago I posted a thread about why very few people are like me. I'm just saying that nuture rules over nature in the end.

[tandeetaylor]

Originally posted by Tuberski

Who says he doesn't respect his religion, I'm MOrmon and I respect the religion, but I drink smoke, have pre-marital sex and drink caffeine.

Just because I don't live it, doesn't mean I don't respect it.

I really don't want to start a fight with you, but as a former Mormon, I know that most Mormons (including the Prophet) would strongly disagree with you. You either are or you aren't. You can make mistakes, but if you're not trying not to anymore, well... And if you've done any of the above on more the one ocassion, and went to your bishop and told him, you would be promptly excommunicated and would have to wait at least a year before being allowed to be re-baptized.