Israeli governement won't allow the creation of a Palestinian state.

[Sirotnikov]

I too thought there was a good agreement...


However, when trying to sign it, Barak's representatives called Abu Ala and said "let's sign the deal, for future reference" he answered "the boss doesn't want a deal now".

as clearly as that.

so he doesn't want a deal.


and sharon - sharon wants to delay the deal, and then have a very pro-israeli deal. his deal is unrealistic.

anyway, while i morally acknowledge a fair deal should be made...

i do not want one. i do not trust the palestinains anymore.

[Ecthy]

why not? suicide attacks? they're acarried out by maniacs, not by the palestinians. though Arafat seems to be a weak leader. and then, what are they supposed to do, but that's on another sheet.

"he doesn't want a deal" - who? Abu Ala? is he still in such a position?

And Sharon seems to have played too much EU2, where you delay peace deals and conquer many provinces before finally getting a deal that is more favourable

[Sirotnikov]

abu ala talked about arafat who didn't want an agreement.


ecth. - face it. it's not "acts carried out by extremists".

it's a well organized, covered up by proper media control, revolution.

russian experts said it was going exactly according to the steps taught by soviet revolutionists to their allies.

1. civilian rebellion (first few months)
2. suicide bombs (since first months)
3. sniping roads (since first months)
4. commando groups sent to mid town (all last 12 months)

The 5th step was large (10 - 20) commando groups.

luckaly, IDF stepped in on time, so they are back to stage 2.

[Ecthy]

Do you seriously think *they* (whoever they are) were short before taking over control over all of Israel or so?

And I find it's worth a laugh how noone of you ever says a word about the civilians and they're water supplies being destroyed, although your admissions to caring are quite fair.

If only there was a wide-spread separation of people and leadership/militias, regardless popular support.

[Natan]

Marcus: The Kosovo comparison is ridiculous. Milosevic had expelled 800,000 people from the country in a few monthes, raped and murdered a smaller number, and even then we wouldn't have intervened except that we believed he was murdering tens of thousands. If Sharon is Milosevic, than Saddam Hussein is Hitler. I guess you'll start favoring the attack on the latter now?

As for the Likud decision, I suppose it does put Likud on the level of Arafat's Fatah, which has held since its creation that Israel must be destroyed through "armed struggle."

And as for the Saudi peace proposal, you have a misconception that it is a treaty - it is not. There is no real document which you could call a treaty. Instead, it's a series of vague demands which Israel has to fulfill. And one can't really fulfill vague demands.

[Sirotnikov]

they're goal wasn't taking over.

their goal was craeting enough ramble and chaos to bring international forces, and to force israel to respond harshley - which they could use for PR.

Notice how much PR has been put into Jenin? It was pre-planned. They wanted to have a "Jenin".

"Sadly" for them, we only killed 50-100 people there.

[Saint Marcus]

Cut off the Pals money and say until you move to stop terrorism in a real way, you won't get any more money.

Why only the Palestinians? Why not boycot the Israelis as well as the Palestinians?

And why not move international forces in there while we're at it?

And as for the Saudi peace proposal, you have a misconception that it is a treaty - it is not. There is no real document which you could call a treaty. Instead, it's a series of vague demands which Israel has to fulfill. And one can't really fulfill vague demands.

it can't be that one sided, since even the Americans are backing the proposal.

[Natan]

it can't be that one sided, since even the Americans are backing the proposal.

It's not that it's one sided, it's that it's vague. And sayign that "The Americans are backing the proposal" is again attributing more structure to this than there is. We said that it was a "positive step" - we did not say "Great treaty, we expect Sharon to sign" because there is no treaty. And it is a positive step, but it's not an agreement; and it's not going to lead directly to peace until the Arab states either make it a real proposal or agree to negotiate it. Until then, it's the Saudi non-plan.

And why not move international forces in there while we're at it?

International forces won't be effective until both sides have already reached an agreement.

[Ecthy]

Originally posted by Sirotnikov
they're goal wasn't taking over.

their goal was craeting enough ramble and chaos to bring international forces, and to force israel to respond harshley - which they could use for PR.

Notice how much PR has been put into Jenin? It was pre-planned. They wanted to have a "Jenin".

"Sadly" for them, we only killed 50-100 people there.

Courageous... very much so, I'd be careful with stuff like that.

[Az]

And why not move international forces in there while we're at it?

well , we've seen how effective UN forces have been in pre-67' Sinai, and how effective was UNIFIL from buffering the Israelis and the Hizballah. Also , major successes as the UNTAC mission spring to mind.

[Sirotnikov]

tell me more about UNTAC

[Imran Siddiqui]

Yep, this shows that Israel isn't for peace at all. The bill says that Israeli should NEVER recognize a Palestinian state. As you can see the Israelis come out of the woodwork so they can say their rascist country can't do no wrong .

And then they wonder why there is terrorism ?

[Frankychan]

Re: Israeli governement won't allow the creation of a Palestinian state.

Originally posted by Saint Marcus

Anyone who still thinks the Israeli's are anything other than oppressors is really living in a different world. I really don't think there is any difference anymore between the Serbs during the Kosovo war, and Israel today. The Serbs also refused a creation of a seperate autonomous Kosovo, same as with Israel and Palestine today. Also, the Serbs used military force to stop "terrorists" in that territory, like Israel is doing. Both also commited warcrimes. The only difference are the American double standards.

**** Israel.

I hear that.

I think it's time the Palestinian people establish a country of their own. True, the Palestinian terrorists are horrible people, but the civilian pop is suffering.

I was watching interviews w/some Israeli's and they said that they didn't care, all they wanted was to live their lives in peace and not think about the next bombing.

*** Israeli militants, *** Sharon.

(but the average Israeli [and Palestinian] are aiight, its just the govt officials that suck ***)

[Promethus]

So what's the matter? Why can't they send Helis with commandos at night and snipe down all guys that lead extremist groups?

If you truly think this is possible I want to know what have you been smoking?

Read this and tell me you still think this possible.

An Impossible Occupation

May 12, 2002
By SCOTT ANDERSON




Behind enemy lines with a platoon of elite Israeli
commandos, in a war they believe they must fight but know
they can't win.

http://www.nytimes.com/2002/05/12/magazine/12IDF.html?ex=1022347873&ei=1&en=87202a4bde333e05

EDIT: Typo

[CyberGnu]

Huh... The ruling Likud party comes out and says 'we don't want peace, and we never will', and people act suprised... Wow...

Personally I think this might be a good thing. At least Bush can't deny it any longer, so maybe he'll put some more pressure on Israel.