Fellow E. Europeans - let's show our gratitude to the west by posting "thanks" here!

[Fidel]

hehee, fat chance

[DanS]

In time, LaRusso. In time.

[JohnT]

Rogan: ". Have you ever read any of the Culture books by Ian Banks? That would be a true communist society."

While it is true that Iain Bank's Culture represents a Communist utopia, the fact is this is only possible (as Mr. Banks admits) because machines do all the work. Until that time comes, I'll choose the capitalist oppressors over the communist ones anyday.

Anyway, "it'll work because it does so in a sci-fi book I read" does not the most compelling argument make.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

as for the articles (the one about Tudjmans comments I'll save top my HDD, for furture reference).

And the other two, yes it is true, but as I said that he and his regime was criminal as well as the people who commited the crimes should go to court and the justice should be done.As i said present government is delivering our own generals and soldiers to the Hague, and some are being tried at home.

I think this is a first time too that a defending (taking back our territiry) army is being tried for the war crimes, which is certainly good and should became a practice everywhere. It would be good that there is at least some code of conduct in the war that should be followed and that killing of innocent civilians will be later exposed not tollerated and punished. (After WWII and Korea, Vietnam, did anyone put the winners on trial? no, but that should be the case in the future)

Btw this year all yes all major judges have been replaced in Croatia that shows something about our prior system. The articles show as well that killing was not done on purely nationalistic basis, these guys killed Croats too, so basicly everyone who stood on their path. And here goes my claim that the former regime was criminal, you had Croats on positions being killed just to make way for the regimes will.

Fortunaley not many but but fortunatley too this regime is not in the place anymore and many of these people are in jail already. That is precisley the reason why democracy is good, a change without war. At least we got a chance, as well as Serbia, to chose better people to lead us out of this ****e. And now we can see what was happening behind the 'closed' doors, as opposed to communism when you could not do either.

As for comparing Stalin and Hitler it is like comparing bad and worse. A nation of literate peole woudl be literate anyway if it was uder capitalist system, a nation full of composers, writhers, artists before the revolution, became a nation with hardly any after. A nation full of natural riches and potential bacame a nation where peole starve today. the russians got into space that is true, their GDP figures were certainly heavily inflated at the time, and one thing that did striuve ther was science, and especially military and space advances where they keept up with the west.

I could bet thet Hitler would do the same, Ie he was more advanced in rocket science than the allies at the end of the war. As for genocide, well ask those baltic nations and russian germans who supported the Red Army during the war, what they think about genocide among others. As well all the people who did not agree with the regime which If I am not wrong included many Jews too.

Overall Hitler might have been worse, if for nothin else than for going to an outhright war + plus plain genocide. But Stalin was not a much better alternative.

[Roland]

"They are ALL capitalist countries. - The US isn't even a capitalist country"

They are all somewhat capitalist, and the US isn't purely capitalist ? Or what do you two mean.

"the vanguard of Western culture was the tele-evangelists?"

Worse. It was the west german tourist.

[Chris 62]

Your welcome, Roman.

Glad to do it, always fun to stick it to the commies.

So tell me, you commie kids, do you just cut and paste the same stuff in your posts?
In a thread that had zero to do with your personal BS, we heard the same old stuff, some favs highlighted:

USA did this to (fill in the blank)
USA shouldn't have been in Balkans
USA wiped out helpless indians
USA intervenes where it doesn't belong (A real fav of scandanavians, think it was a Swede for this one)
USA DOESN'T intervene and did not intervene (from a member of the Baltic states)
USA supports dictators, scum, yadda,yadda,yadda
Karl Marx was misunderstood (A real laugh, since "Das Capital" is almost unreadable)
Soviets wern't "real" communists (Like any nation that claims to be communist is?!!?)
USA supported Khmer Rouge (A real silly one, considering they were communists fighting the US supported Sianouk)
CIA was busy taking over the world (Another big yucks one, considering what a rotten job they have done over the years )
USA supported South Africa
There are probaly more, but these caught my eye, because they were from the same people as always, in the same threads.

Can any of the Commie kids tell us what it was like living under a communist regieme?
Just a question, feel free to answer any way you like, I'm just curious to see who has practical life experience under such a system that they advocate so strongly for.
Go easy on the economics, keep it simple, I don't know much about that stuff, so explain carefully, please.

[OneFootInTheGrave]

I guess jut read all the posts *too long*

but Roman had it in another recent thread where he described how was it for him.

http://apolyton.net/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=27391&highlight=communism

look for his posts

And I describe now and than in this thread how was it for me. I don't think there are people who lived in communist countries and understand both systems could advocate communism.

edit: as it was in real life

[Fidel]

Originally posted by OneFootInTheGrave
As for comparing Stalin and Hitler it is like comparing bad and worse. A nation of literate peole woudl be literate anyway if it was uder capitalist system, a nation full of composers, writhers, artists before the revolution, became a nation with hardly any after. A nation full of natural riches and potential bacame a nation where peole starve today. the russians got into space that is true, their GDP figures were certainly heavily inflated at the time, and one thing that did striuve ther was science, and especially military and space advances where they keept up with the west.

okay. russians were arguably a capitalist society before revolution. literacy was EXTREMELY low.

they starved under capitalism too.

can you name any modern russian writer? how about naming some that wrote DURING stalin era: bulgakov, fadeyev, solohov,
pasternak, simonov, ilyf & petrov etc. shostakovich also conducted and composed during stalin. russian culture did NOT die during stalin reign.

all that is left after hitler is 'lili marlen'. even that is a ww1 song.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by Roland
"They are ALL capitalist countries. - The US isn't even a capitalist country"

They are all somewhat capitalist, and the US isn't purely capitalist ? Or what do you two mean.

Roland, governmental control over any part of the economy negates the fundamental aspect of capitalism, ie free trade.

Does that clear things up for you about what I mean?

[Saras]

Originally posted by LaRusso


for whom? germans vs. soviets? lets recapitulate
hitler takes power in 1933. in 12 years his country is pulverized

stalin takes over circa 1931 (we can argue about this one). in 22 years he beats the mightiest army in the world, grabs half of europe, prepares russian space domination and acquires atomic bomb. russia jumps from 1% share of world economy to second place. human toll is enormous but it became a superpower, a nation full of literate people, strong science and really strong welfare.

i am afraid you are comparing only one aspect of their reign. stalin purged his 'enemies'. hitler did likewise, but he also purged whole nations who happened to be 'lower'. it's a huge difference.

The difference is that Germany lost. Would it have won, we'd have LaRusso v 2.01 babbling about how great the nazi regime was, welfare, 'ordnung' and how Stalin obliterated his country.

Which would be equally stupid.

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Chris 62
Your welcome, Roman.

Glad to do it, always fun to stick it to the commies.

So tell me, you commie kids, do you just cut and paste the same stuff in your posts?
In a thread that had zero to do with your personal BS, we heard the same old stuff, some favs highlighted:

USA did this to (fill in the blank)
USA shouldn't have been in Balkans
USA wiped out helpless indians
USA intervenes where it doesn't belong (A real fav of scandanavians, think it was a Swede for this one)
USA DOESN'T intervene and did not intervene (from a member of the Baltic states)
USA supports dictators, scum, yadda,yadda,yadda
Karl Marx was misunderstood (A real laugh, since "Das Capital" is almost unreadable)
Soviets wern't "real" communists (Like any nation that claims to be communist is?!!?)
USA supported Khmer Rouge (A real silly one, considering they were communists fighting the US supported Sianouk)
CIA was busy taking over the world (Another big yucks one, considering what a rotten job they have done over the years )
USA supported South Africa
There are probaly more, but these caught my eye, because they were from the same people as always, in the same threads.

Can any of the Commie kids tell us what it was like living under a communist regieme?
Just a question, feel free to answer any way you like, I'm just curious to see who has practical life experience under such a system that they advocate so strongly for.
Go easy on the economics, keep it simple, I don't know much about that stuff, so explain carefully, please.

here comes a cowboy with his laso. go away. write about new york and threaten OBL.

we lived under communism. i lived for 18 years, roman for whopping 7. you did not. you live in the greatest country ever, populated by the bravest people ever. leave us to roll in our stinky european mud, poor and uneducated like we are...

[Roland]

"capitalism" is a fuzzy term. It's pointless on its own, cause there is virtually nothing economic in the world without capital.
What you call "capitalism" is what I'd call "pure capitalism". Just a question of clarity rather than being right.

now LR will accuse me of the central european thing again...

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Saras


The difference is that Germany lost. Would it have won, we'd have LaRusso v 2.01 babbling about how great the nazi regime was, welfare, 'ordnung' and how Stalin obliterated his country.

Which would be equally stupid.

except that nazis made human soap. am i correct?

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Roland
now LR will accuse me of the central european thing again...

not at all. you could give chris62 lessons on that

[OneFootInTheGrave]

Well culture from such a big county cannot die but it certainly shrunk its output a lot since art had to comply with the regime, and certaily many would be artists died either trying to run away and caught, or for being politically 'wrong'.