Fellow E. Europeans - let's show our gratitude to the west by posting "thanks" here!

[Sarxis]

Roman, though a civilian of the West, I can not truthfully state that any actions of mine were directly a result of Easter European Communism falling. I can, however, state this:

Your thanksgiving embodies the brotherhood of nations that many of us Westerners strive for. And I can also say that I celebrate the freedom under which you now live- freedom without the oppression of unjust dictatorship.

[Seeker]

The end of Sovietism was a good....which we can mostly thank people like Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel and Alexandr Solzhenitysn for. They laid the foundation that got Soviet youth disillusioned with the system.

Unfortunately....the 'what to do afterwards' part has been mostly botched...

The first thing should have been a return of ethnic Germans to their rightful property and ancestral homes in the lands of the Slav.

For example, in the 'Baltic-German Newsletter' (a small Canadian publication my family has subscribed to for a long time) one can read of the difficulties such organizations as the 'Back to Konigsburg' movement are having.

The Russians demolished such areas as the so-called 'Kaliningrad 'Oblast' and made it a nightmare...now the rightful owners are ready to return and are denied?

We still have pictures of the wonderful house and hunting cabin our German cousins had in East Prussia before the war, now it must be a broken down cement or tractor smashing place that the Slavs liked to build...

The first step to law and prosperity is recognizing legitimate property rights!!

[Fidel]

Fellow Yugoslavs

Fellow people of the Former Yugoslavia join Vietnamese et al. in saying 'sod off!' Make it triple, actually....

[Sikander]

Re: Re: This is not sarcasm!

Originally posted by Rogan Josh

You should be thankful to communism. Your people lived for many years under a totalitarian dictatorship which just happened to run a command economy (and hence be called 'communist'). If they had been capitalist (but still at odds with the west) they would still be there. It was the inefficiencies of a command economy which lead to their downfall - not the west.

Capitalism is more evil than communism in my book - at least communism, in principle, is supposed to promote equality. That evil bastardisation of communism in the USSR and its satelites should not really be regarded as 'communism'. But pure, unleashed capitalism would provide even greater misery for the masses. Mixed economies, like we have in the west, are the way to go.

Yea, I bet he is really thankful that a hack named Marx created a bogus system of predicting history, which was used by ruthless psuedo-intellectuals to seize power in agrarian mostly illiterate states, who then proceeded to eliminate anyone who was perceived as a threat, and then run a static economy, or industrialize by hiring westerners to create factories where they could be paid a fraction of what the 'exploited and abused' workers in the west were being paid so that their masters could have tanks.

Tell me Rogan, where is the historical record of unbridled capitalism that can claim even a fraction of the misery caused by those who called themselves communists? Most people call the atrocity perpetuated upon Russia and it's sphere of influence communism, and most people call the economic system of the west capitalism. Since there has never been an example of 'good' communism AFAIK, the term should rightfully be applied to the millions of people who called themselves communists and the states which they created and ran into the ground.

If you want to imagine a great society that is all things to all people and give it a name, I suggest you call it Utopia like everyone else. The term communism is already taken, and buried in so much filth it will never recover.

As for capitalism, like communism it doesn't exist in a pure idyllic form. It instead exists as the motive factor in the most successful economies of the world, who have learned to harness it's powers and shield themselves from it's excesses. This is an evolutionary process which is made possible by the freedoms associated with the capitalism that too many assumed would only be available to those who started wealthy.

Victor,

"What should we be greatful for? For being sold out at Yalta? Or for the misery that has come with the sudden shift to capitalism?

Hey, maybe the CIA can find another Ceacescu (sp?) for you to enjoy, and you can take your lame ass back to Romania and we can all enjoy your absence from these discussion boards where I doubt you would be able to post anymore.

You ***** about the U.S. constantly, yet you live here and take the many freedoms and perks we offer. You don't even have the balls to defend the people who make your life here possible. If you can find a better place to live, then please go there. You are taking up the space that should be occupied by some of the millions of people who would trade places with you in a minute, and who know how to show some gratitude and how to defend the source of their good fortune. Go away.

[Roland]

Oh holy ****in' crap. The nostalgia communists meet the cold warriors. have fun, people. But please clean up the blood after you're done.

Seeker:
"The first thing should have been a return of ethnic Germans to their rightful property and ancestral homes in the lands of the Slav."

Ehm... few would want to "return". And the property issue, that would open a can of worms of galactic dimensions. Nope. But some other things like getting formally rid of the Benes decrees...

Oh, btw:

"in the lands of the Slav. For example, in the 'Baltic-German Newsletter'"

Saras will kill you for that.

Königsberg is in a weird situation. Actually the Russians there want german investment, and Moscow tries to stop them.

[Sarxis]

Originally posted by Seeker
The first step to law and prosperity is recognizing legitimate property rights!!

"Posession is 9/10ths of the law", as they say. Though this is a noble thought, what is the actual likely hood of anyone giving land back?

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Seeker
The end of Sovietism was a good....which we can mostly thank people like Lech Walesa and Vaclav Havel and Alexandr Solzhenitysn for. They laid the foundation that got Soviet youth disillusioned with the system.

Solzhenitysn is a dillweed. He is for monarchy and is an orthodox christian lunatic. Did you also know that he got his cancer sucessfully operated while in Gulag? Not many people do not know that and they readily swallos Gulag=Nazi camps equasion. Not to say that Gulag is nice, but mistifying morons like Solzh. is laughable.

People got disillusioned because they could not get Levi's and chewing gums. Instead of VCRs, they built more nuclear warheads.

[Sikander]

Re: Fellow Yugoslavs

Originally posted by LaRusso
Fellow people of the Former Yugoslavia join Vietnamese et al. in saying 'sod off!' Make it triple, actually....

Well, I never wanted to get involved in Yugoslavia at all personally, but your misery was mostly of your (Yugoslavs) own making. Sorry about the bombing btw, I tried to stop them. I do hope that we leave you folks to your own devices from now on. Just try to keep the ethnic cleansing down to a dull roar, and perhaps your neighbors won't be so fired up on intervention, and the U.S. won't be duped into doing the dirty work for them.

Are you still living in Yugoslavia? You are very well informed about the recent history of the U.S., which is why I ask.

[Fidel]

Re: Re: Re: This is not sarcasm!

Originally posted by Sikander


Yea, I bet he is really thankful that a hack named Marx created a bogus system of predicting history, which was used by ruthless psuedo-intellectuals to seize power in agrarian mostly illiterate states, who then proceeded to eliminate anyone who was perceived as a threat, and then run a static economy, or industrialize by hiring westerners to create factories where they could be paid a fraction of what the 'exploited and abused' workers in the west were being paid so that their masters could have tanks.

Tell me Rogan, where is the historical record of unbridled capitalism that can claim even a fraction of the misery caused by those who called themselves communists?

I guess communists exterminated Native Indians. Also, it was them who orchestrated genocide against Armenians. Nice religious people all over Europe decimated each other for centuries under 'capitalism'. Also, capitalism is the system of many small states you would rather put under the carpet. Wa-hey, South Africa was also capitalist during apartheid, and so was America during slavery and later segregation. To equate capitalism with civil liberties is wrong. It can exist without them.

As for capitalism, like communism it doesn't exist in a pure idyllic form. It instead exists as the motive factor in the most successful economies of the world, who have learned to harness it's powers and shield themselves from it's excesses. This is an evolutionary process which is made possible by the freedoms associated with the capitalism that too many assumed would only be available to those who started wealthy.

please take some time to count the number of capitalist countries in which people live only slightly better than animals. enjoy!

You ***** about the U.S. constantly, yet you live here and take the many freedoms and perks we offer. You don't even have the balls to defend the people who make your life here possible. If you can find a better place to live, then please go there. You are taking up the space that should be occupied by some of the millions of people who would trade places with you in a minute, and who know how to show some gratitude and how to defend the source of their good fortune. Go away.

likewise, why dont you stop saving us constantly from someone. mind your own business.

[Fidel]

Re: Re: Fellow Yugoslavs

Originally posted by Sikander


Well, I never wanted to get involved in Yugoslavia at all personally, but your misery was mostly of your (Yugoslavs) own making. Sorry about the bombing btw, I tried to stop them. I do hope that we leave you folks to your own devices from now on. Just try to keep the ethnic cleansing down to a dull roar, and perhaps your neighbors won't be so fired up on intervention, and the U.S. won't be duped into doing the dirty work for them.

Are you still living in Yugoslavia? You are very well informed about the recent history of the U.S., which is why I ask.

no, milosevic people did not allow me to get employed so i emigrated. i am coming back to work for 1/4 of what i earn now. it's time to rebuild the country

[Fidel]

Originally posted by Roland
Oh holy ****in' crap. The nostalgia communists meet the cold warriors. have fun, people. But please clean up the blood after you're done.

haha, bastards! you ALREADY live in Mozartkugeln Utopia

[Fidel]

Re: Re: if so then. .

Originally posted by Roman


Sure, you did not overthrow Communism directly, but you sure helped undermine its rule by all possible means. Not least by giving us information about the true state that the "East" was in and the "West" was in, thus enabling us to make a comparison. Then you provided us with moral support when we finally got organised to overthrow Communism. You did many other positive things against Communism too.

Roman, you must have suffered those 7 years of your life under communism

[Roland]

LR:

As an old austrian proverb says, "The Mozartkugel is more powerful than the sword".

For commies and capitalists, the fringies never got much traction here. In the 1945 election, the Soviets pushed the communists heavily, and they got a whopping 5 % of the vote and are dead now, they only exist to administrate their corporate shareholdings and real estate (ironic, eh?).

The capitalist fringies are getting a bit louder now but that will pass...

[Seeker]

"Saras will kill you for that"

Tell him I consider Lithuanians as honourary Prussians.



Seriously though there needs to be some sort of healing of the damage caused by the great trek...

although those immigrants to Canada managed to prosper within a few short years. They did have to adopt the Anglicisation of our name though due to the prevailing anti-Germanism of the time. (at least in my family)

[Seeker]

*On second thought maybe this is just the snobbery of some of the literature and diaries I am reading in my researches...there seems to be a sort of implication that Eastern Europeans need a sort of 'administrator' class than can get things running business-like*

The Eastern Europe I am thinking of is not really the Czechs, Hungarians, or Lithuanians but the 'crap' part like Rumanians, Moldovians, Poles, etc.