Hitler wanted to kidnap the pope

[David Floyd]

A perfect illustration of why noone should ever going to put you in charge of anything important David.

Dumbass, I'm not talking about my beliefs, I'm talking about what the Pope should have done based upon HIS supposed beliefs.

[Patroklos]

I suppose none of the Jews should have hid during the war, or left Germany prior to it as well.

Cowards.

And no, Germany was most definetly majority Protestant overall.

[Dis]

do we know why Hitler was so against the jews? I'll never understand why people are racist towards the jews. Is this a religious thing dealing with Jesus? Seems like a flimsy reason to be racist.

[Patroklos]

Dumbass, I'm not talking about my beliefs, I'm talking about what the Pope should have done based upon HIS supposed beliefs.

BTW Floyd, Christianity did not survive the Roman Empire by throwing themselves at the mercy of the Pagans, they did it by secretly worshiping in catacombs and keeping their faith secret, slowely growing under the radar.

So no, the Pope did not act in contridiction to historical precedance, and his primary responsibilty as the head of the chruch is to secure its survival.

[Tassadar500]

Originally posted by Dissident
do we know why Hitler was so against the jews? I'll never understand why people are racist towards the jews. Is this a religious thing dealing with Jesus? Seems like a flimsy reason to be racist.

I think there are two reasons, one being religious. The first one is, there are so little of us, yet many of us are well known, and that makes people jealous, and if they wanted to use Jews as scapegoats it would be quite easy. The second is, we are God's chosen people, and this is all part of his Master Plan.

[Patroklos]

Small minority, maintained most of their wealth (at least that was perception) while the rest of Germany was in economic ruin. Some of the ceromonies and traditions of the Juews like dress, hair, etc. make them easily recognizable and differet. It was a group you could marginalize without at the same time crippling the power of the country in general. Would have been hard to wage a would war if he had murdered all the Protestants.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Patroklos
I suppose none of the Jews should have hid during the war, or left Germany prior to it as well.

Cowards.

And no, Germany was most definetly majority Protestant overall.

If you take into consideration the annexed populations of Austria and Sudetenland I'm not sure that's the case.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As is Poland.

I'm not sure what your point was.

A claim was made that implicated that the Pope could more easily take a stnd against the Soviets because there weren't any Catholics in the SU. I was merely pointing out that there were substantial populations of Catholics within the SU.

[Patroklos]

If you take into consideration the annexed populations of Austria and Sudetenland I'm not sure that's the case.

If you want to give your personal legal saction to annexing Poland go ahead. I will talk about Germany proper. Not that it matters, even with those additions you would be hard pressed to get Cathlics to make up even 30-35 perscent of the population.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Floyd's correct this once, though. The Pope should have taken a firm stand against the Nazis.

And lost everything.

[DinoDoc]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Floyd's correct this once, though. The Pope should have taken a firm stand against the Nazis. What if Christians behaved that cowardly during the Roman Empire?

Does this topic ever die?

Originally posted by DinoDoc on 31 Dec 2001
From the Encyclopedia of Catholic History: "the encyclical was a strong denunciation of Nazism, noting that the Nazis had broken several points of the concordat and were actively involved in anti-Catholic and anti-Christian programs, such as the removal of the OT [Old Testament] from schools and the promotion of the so-called German National Church. The encyclical was read from the pulpit of every German church on March 21, 1937".

More info on the Pope:

The New York Times editorial on December 25, 1942 (Late Day edition, p. 16) states: This Christmas more than ever he is a lonely voice crying out of the silence of a continent... Pope Pius expresses as passionately as any leader on our side the war aims of the struggle for freedom when he says that those who aim at building a new world must fight for free choice of government and religious order. They must refuse that the state should make of individuals a herd of whom the state disposes as if they were lifeless things.

And finally:

The Israeli consul, Pinchas E. Lapide, in his book, Three Popes and the Jews (New York: Hawthorn Books, Inc., 1967) critically examines Pope Pius XII. According to his research, the Catholic Church under Pius XII was instrumental in saving 860,000 Jews from Nazi death camps (p. 214).

What more would you have him do?

[Alexander's Horse]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
Floyd's correct this once, though. The Pope should have taken a firm stand against the Nazis. What if Christians behaved that cowardly during the Roman Empire?

Christians did not speak out against the Roman Empire.

So Pius speaks out against nazism - thousands of Jews being hidden die, the church loses all influence with various governments and thousands of clergy die - yep, that would have really been a smart thing to do.

[Ben Kenobi]

Given that most of Germany was Catholic at this point, not very likely. Southern Germany and Austria are Catholic, as would be the Sudetenland.

As in the OP, some Catholics served Hitler. The Catholics would have a choice between standing up for their faith against Hitler, or to face death. It is precisely because so much of the Reich was Catholic, that Hitler would have to clamp down on those who spoke up if the Pope instructed Catholics to rebel against Hitler.

The dissidents from Hitler's regime, as faithful Catholics, they would be rounded up and shot.

[Ben Kenobi]

What if Christians behaved that cowardly during the Roman Empire?

One man may bravely offer his life. How brave is the man who offers the lives of others? If you are ever in a position of leadership, you know that this is the most difficult thing, to take an action that you know will result in harm to others. That's the difference between the priest, and a parishioner, the parishioner boldly offers his life, knowing that he is the only one who will suffer.

[David Floyd]

So no, the Pope did not act in contridiction to historical precedance, and his primary responsibilty as the head of the chruch is to secure its survival.

Yes, the Pope did act contrary to his Biblical obligations. All Christians, especially those in positions of authority, have a Biblical responsibility to speak out against evil, regardless of consequences.

If you really want Biblical cites, I'll get some for you, but I assure you, the Pope had a Biblical obligation to forcefully denounce evil.