Ukraine

[Pekka]

Of course, if the fraud took place, like everyone is saying. If it didn't, then it's a shame. If it did take place, shame on you .

[Combat Ingrid]

It's time to send them another Rurik to govern them, as in the good old days

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Pekka
Of course, if the fraud took place, like everyone is saying. If it didn't, then it's a shame. If it did take place, shame on you .

Nope. 1. Kiev is the historical mother city of Russian civilization. 2. Ukrainian is a made up identity, "ukraine" just means "borderland", "Ukrainian" is a dialect of Russian. (oh and it was made up Germans and Poles to weaken Russia) 3. In any case, plenty of self identifying Russians live in Ukraine, and its about time that ethnic Russians stop being dragged away from Russia, and for them to enter "europe" would be particularly outrageous. 4. Ukraine is the necessary piece to restore Russia to the great power status it was deprived of by fascists, imperialists, and traitors.

Ergo, whatever Russia does to retain dominance in the Ukraine is justified. And nothing that is done to take Ukraine away from that dominance can possibly be justified.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark

Who visited Ukraine during the election? Who endorsed a candidate? Its pretty obvious WHO has been pressuring Ukraine - and WHO is so angry that hundreds of thousands of Ukrainians have taken to the streets in defiance of that pressure.

Hell, visited or not, this does not change the fact that every western goverment, every organization, every media outlet cry that the election was a fraud. With modern means of communication, everyone in Ukraine knows this, you don't need to visit.

And who is in the streets are mainly the residents of Kiev, where Yushchenko got 80%, while Yanukovich only 17%. Of course, they must be disappointed, but they must respect the choice of their countrymen outside of Kiev.

But the vast conspiracy that includes everyone from Foxnews to the Guardian marches on. Right.

I'd prefer to call it 'geopolitics', not 'conspiracy'.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


Hell, visited or not, this does not change the fact that every western goverment, every organization, every media outlet cry that the election was a fraud. With modern means of communication, everyone in Ukraine knows this, you don't need to visit.
.

All X say that assertion Y is true. Belief that fact Y is true tends to cause Z to do A. This demonstrates that all X are deliberately pressuring Z to do A. Critique, without assuming that assertion Y is false.

[Gangerolf]

Originally posted by Combat Ingrid
It's time to send them another Rurik to govern them, as in the good old days

But who?

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Pekka
Of course, if the fraud took place, like everyone is saying. If it didn't, then it's a shame. If it did take place, shame on you .

There is no way to know whether there was a fraud, and to which extent it influenced to the outcome. What I claim is that the West is crying so loudly and persistently of fraud mainly because the preferred candidate of the West lost the election. If Yushchenko won, the West would not care about the fraud.

[Pekka]

So, the western nations had people watching the elections, and they called it fraud, after which the media calls it a fraud.

Instead of being concenred if it is a fraud or not, you are worried about western media calling it a fraud. With such implications in the air, don't you think we should investigate if it was a fraud and everything else is secondary?

[Combat Ingrid]

Originally posted by Gangerolf


But who?

No, not him. Ukraine is our friend, you know

[Gangerolf]

"The figures and reports about the unjustified increase in the use of absentee voter certificates and the even higher increase of mobile voting, cast a shadow over the genuineness of the results," said Mr. Lucio Malan, Head of the NATO Parliamentary Assembly delegation. "Moreover the turnout in some territorial election commissions in Donetsk, exceeding 98.5 per cent, and increasing by 21 per cent after the first round, are unrealistic and highly suspicious."

Observers noted more serious violations, including some isolated incidents of violence, and a pattern of intimidation, including directed towards observers, polling commission members and individual voters. In a significant number of polling stations, commission members had been dismissed. In some instances, unauthorized persons were interfering in or directing the process, or otherwise attempting to influence voters.

http://www.osce.org/news/show_news.php?id=4547

Hmmm no we couldn't possibly know whether there was fraud.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by The Vagabond


I'd prefer to call it 'geopolitics', not 'conspiracy'.

an agreement to lie is generally called a conspiracy, whatever the motivation.

But lets address geopolitics. The states and media outlets involved represent a broad range of views on geopolitics, from those in UK and elsewhere who want the EU to expand, to those in France who think the EU is too big as it is, to folks in the US who see the EU as a threat. Its hard to see how they could all agree who to favor on geopolitical grounds. The beleif that "holding down Russia" trumps all their other disagreements and views, seems, how can I say this politely, like a distorted POV, one that overemphasizes the importance of Russia in the affairs of the West, and that overemphasizes the enmity toward Russia. There is a word for this inclination, but Id like to avoid it.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Gangerolf

http://www.osce.org/news/show_news.php?id=4547

Hmmm no we couldn't possibly know whether there was fraud.

i dont see why those instances should be considered fraud. After all, if East Germany, where Mr. Putin made his career, was a "democratic Republic" why should those things be considered contradictions of democracy. Its SO unfair.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Pekka
So, the western nations had people watching the elections, and they called it fraud, after which the media calls it a fraud.

They called it fraud because they did not like the outcome. If they liked the outcome, they would not call it fraud (at least not so loudly and persistently). The same people considered the elections e.g. in Kosovo and Georgia, etc. a triumph of democracy.

Instead of being concenred if it is a fraud or not, you are worried about western media calling it a fraud. With such implications in the air, don't you think we should investigate if it was a fraud and everything else is secondary?

I am worried about the gross interference by the West. The West is not really concerned by the fraud, but rather by the outcome. I don't think that in such circumstances it is appropriate to join those hypocritical calls for investigation.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
But lets address geopolitics. The states and media outlets involved represent a broad range of views on geopolitics, from those in UK and elsewhere who want the EU to expand, to those in France who think the EU is too big as it is, to folks in the US who see the EU as a threat. Its hard to see how they could all agree who to favor on geopolitical grounds. The beleif that "holding down Russia" trumps all their other disagreements and views, seems, how can I say this politely, like a distorted POV, one that overemphasizes the importance of Russia in the affairs of the West, and that overemphasizes the enmity toward Russia. There is a word for this inclination, but Id like to avoid it.

The West is obsessed with keeping Ukraine out of Russia-led alliances. This is a fact. This is considered extremely important. Whatever contradictions may recently have surfaced between western countries, there is a solid consensus in the West on this particular issue.

[The Vagabond]

Originally posted by Gangerolf

http://www.osce.org/news/show_news.php?id=4547

Hmmm no we couldn't possibly know whether there was fraud.

The demonization spiral unrolls. You should literally believe all what you read in your glorious media.