Controversial Dutch Filmmaker Theo van Gogh killed

[Sikander]

Originally posted by WotanAnubis

No, I think Fortuyn was killed because Volkert truly believed that he was a walking disaster area, would make a completely horrible politician on every issue and would lead the whole country to complete and utter ruin.

That murder was not motivated by religion, unless you stretch the concept of "religion" quite far.

Well the Animal Rights movement shares a lot of characteristics of fundamentalist religious movements. They both have a circular logic that precludes their ability to persuade logically, and they both have a greater tendency than other groups to lash out violently (I assume) because of this.

[lord of the mark]

The Volkskrant newspaper, quoted by Reuters, said the 26-year-old suspect, who has dual Dutch and Moroccan nationality, was known to national security services but was not among a group of 150 Muslims the AIVD security service was monitoring.

The suspect was allegedly the friend of Samir Azzouz, an 18-year-old Muslim of Moroccan origin who is awaiting trial on charges of planning a terrorist attack on targets including a nuclear reactor and Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, De Telegraaf and NOS Dutch television reported.

A picture on the front page of De Telegraaf showed the body of filmmaker Van Gogh lying on the street with two knives sticking out.

"We're not going to take this," the Dagblad said.

The paper said the killer shot Van Gogh eight or nine times, then calmly bent over his victim and slit his throat with a knife, AP reported.

Moroccan- Dutch dual national. Friend of someone awaiting trial on charges of planning terrorist attacks. Slitting of the throat.

looks like Laurentius was right.

I hope moderate muslims will join all other Dutch people, and people around the world, in fighting the menace of Islamist radicalism.

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark


Moroccan- Dutch dual national. Friend of someone awaiting trial on charges of planning terrorist attacks. Slitting of the throat.

looks like Laurentius was right.

I hope moderate muslims will join all other Dutch people, and people around the world, in fighting the menace of Islamist radicalism.

The muslims and/or Morrocans here are in a rather nasty catch 22:
On one hand, there are many calls on them that they are not integrated, and being a muslim is one aspect they should dump and join the secular Dutch state. Call yorself a Muslim and building big Mosques is considered BAD.

On the other hand, in situations like this, it is demanded of them they declare themselves muslim if they want to join the voices condemning the murder. If they don't specifically show up en masse as muslims, that is BAD.



A question: Is there anything wrong with dual nationality?

[Locutus]

De Telegraaf is the Dutch equivalent of the German Bild or the English Sun, a popular tabloidish paper, I wouldn't advise taking anything they report too seriously unless other sources confirm it... Yes, it's true that the that the suspect had, to quote official sources "ties with extremist muslims", but so did Samir Azzouz's mother, that doesn't make her an extremist. There could be at least 2 reasons why the AIVD wasn't monitoring the murder suspect like the other radicals: (1) they f*cked up or (2) he wasn't part of that group, he merely had contact with them. It could be either one, only time will tell. If radical muslims conspired to commit this assassination, it's not very logical for them to have gone after Van Gogh, there are far more obvious targets. Based on that reasoning it's likely the killer was just a lone loony, like past assassins. But again, let's just wait for an official report on the matter rather than speculate...

I hope moderate muslims will join all other Dutch people, and people around the world, in fighting the menace of Islamist radicalism.

What, you really think moderate muslims are gonna say "Yay, about time someone killed that bastard"? Of course they are on the same line as the rest of the Dutch population, in fact a muslim delegation was present during the demonstration against the muder yesterday (though they had some doubts about coming because they feared for their own safety in case the mob had turned against them).

Unfortunately the issue is not what moderate muslims will do, the issue is what will be done onto them...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by germanos



The muslims and/or Morrocans here are in a rather nasty catch 22:
On one hand, there are many calls on them that they are not integrated, and being a muslim is one aspect they should dump and join the secular Dutch state. Call yorself a Muslim and building big Mosques is considered BAD.

On the other hand, in situations like this, it is demanded of them they declare themselves muslim if they want to join the voices condemning the murder. If they don't specifically show up en masse as muslims, that is BAD.



A question: Is there anything wrong with dual nationality?

is the problem calling yourself a muslim, and building a big mosque, or failing to assimilate in matters of family structure, treatment of women, etc?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Locutus
De Telegraaf is the Dutch equivalent of the German Bild or the English Sun, a popular tabloidish paper, I wouldn't advise taking anything they report too seriously unless other sources confirm it... Yes, it's true that the that the suspect had, to quote official sources "ties with extremist muslims", but so did Samir Azzouz's mother, that doesn't make her an extremist. There could be at least 2 reasons why the AIVD wasn't monitoring the murder suspect like the other radicals: (1) they f*cked up or (2) he wasn't part of that group, he merely had contact with them. It could be either one, only time will tell. If radical muslims conspired to commit this assassination, it's not very logical for them to have gone after Van Gogh, there are far more obvious targets. Based on that reasoning it's likely the killer was just a lone loony, like past assassins. But again, let's just wait for an official report on the matter rather than speculate...



What, you really think moderate muslims are gonna say "Yay, about time someone killed that bastard"? Of course they are on the same line as the rest of the Dutch population, in fact a muslim delegation was present during the demonstration against the muder yesterday (though they had some doubts about coming because they feared for their own safety in case the mob had turned against them).

Unfortunately the issue is not what moderate muslims will do, the issue is what will be done onto them...

I was not thinking so much of the reaction to this murder, which I agree the reaction is obvious, but of larger attitudes towards radical Islamism, terrorism, etc.

[germanos]

Originally posted by lord of the mark



is the problem calling yourself a muslim, and building a big mosque, or failing to assimilate in matters of family structure, treatment of women, etc?

Well, I would say the latter, but I often get the idea the debate is about the first.
The party of the late Fortuyn has tried hard to stop the building of a big mosque here in Rotterdam (where they govern) simply on the assertion the building of the mosque itself is a sign of failing to integrate.

[alva]

Like Fortuyn, he only ever brought up problems, never solutions.

If no one ever calls ont the problems, chances are no soluions will ever come up either.

[alva]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Why would criticism of the treatment of women in Islamic countries be considered controversial? It is a well known fact that women are essentially second class citizens in a number of Islamic countries, including Iran, Saudi Arabia, Jordan, (northern) Nigeria and a number of the Gulf states. By and large the most outspoken Islamic groups advocate the oppression of women and are not at all defensive about their opinions.

You can't in Europe, 'cause that is absolute proof you're a racist.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by germanos
Well, I would say the latter, but I often get the idea the debate is about the first.
The party of the late Fortuyn has tried hard to stop the building of a big mosque here in Rotterdam (where they govern) simply on the assertion the building of the mosque itself is a sign of failing to integrate.

Maybe that's a reason why hatemongering works so well?

[germanos]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Maybe that's a reason why hatemongering works so well?

Sorry, but I don't get your point

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by germanos
Sorry, but I don't get your point

By rejecting the possibility to build a real worship place, the Fortuynists actively participate to a climate of alienation instead of integration.

[germanos]

Originally posted by Spiffor

By rejecting the possibility to build a real worship place, the Fortuynists actively participate to a climate of alienation instead of integration.

OK, I see now.
And I agree as well.
(with you, not the Fortuynists )

Good news is though that all the stuff allready passed the various commisions, and the building cannot be stopped anymore.

[lord of the mark]

bettter to build a big mosque. Easier to watchem than in a lot of little mosques. Thats the French way, no?

[Lefty Scaevola]

8 other islamacists arrested in the invetigations with no statement why, it may be a usual suspects things, the know the perp, and they were previously detained, questioned, and released in another terror investigation.

http://news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20041103/ap_en_ot/netherlands_filmmaker_slain_25