Controversial Dutch Filmmaker Theo van Gogh killed

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by laurentius
Yeah I admit I get heated up by these people pretty easily. Was my reaction irrational, yes it was. If theres something you disagree and want to perhaps correct, I'm more than happy to argue

Well, for the matter of radical and violent muslims (which is not necessarily the topic of the thread), I do agree something must be done about them. They are much more of a threat for the Muslims living in western countries than for the westerners themselves.

Indeed, Europe has a long tradition of hatred and massacres towards its minorities. The Radical Muslims are waking this hatred up, which will sadly affect all Muslims living in Europe, rather than only those few troublemakers. They are also successful at turning many young Muslims against their country, which means they are very efficient at destroying our past attempts at integration.

The answer to that problem, however, is not shooting them. We must answer these problems by:

1. A strict application of the laws against incitement. I think most European countries have laws against incitement to hatred. They should be applied in the firmest way against radical Muslims, and against racists.

2. A modification of our immigration laws to prevent known hate-mongers to migrate in our territory. The Danes have done this already (although it only concerns Muslims IIUC, which is stupid)

3. An active policy of non-racism. If the hatemongers are so successful, that's mostly because the European societies still haven't satisfyingly integrated their Muslims. That's because our secular societies seem far less promising than religious violence.
If our countries are successful at creating equal opportunity for our Muslims and non-Muslims, the identification to the western country will e stronger for the Muslims, and they'll be far less prone to follow the zealots.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
one time is a abberation two times...then there is something wrong with this country...

But what precisely? What, in your opinion, makes political murder so acceptable in the Netherlands?

[laurentius]

Locutus: You are probably right

I was merely expressing what most poeple thought anyway when they heard about this. We need to change that fact. The best way to change this is to publicly lock down the mullahs preaching hate. There have been a muslim community in Finland for centuries, but these people the Tatars are very moderate and reasonable people. If you let religious people from war torn muslims countries in its no surprise their views are radical and hardline.

EDIT: Spiffor, I very very strongly agree

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Spiffor

Well, for the matter of radical and violent muslims (which is not necessarily the topic of the thread), I do agree something must be done about them. They are much more of a threat for the Muslims living in western countries than for the westerners themselves.

Indeed, Europe has a long tradition of hatred and massacres towards its minorities. The Radical Muslims are waking this hatred up, which will sadly affect all Muslims living in Europe, rather than only those few troublemakers. They are also successful at turning many young Muslims against their country, which means they are very efficient at destroying our past attempts at integration.

The answer to that problem, however, is not shooting them. We must answer these problems by:

1. A strict application of the laws against incitement. I think most European countries have laws against incitement to hatred. .
.

But I fear none has laws so firm as those of your country Spiff. Did you see the Washington Post story, I linked to it on another thread.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by germanos
All the politicians all are out to express their shock, and more or less praise him.

Hypocrites: they despised the guy as long as he lived.

They very well might not have. I mean, they are politicians. It's their business.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by Spiffor

But what precisely? What, in your opinion, makes political murder so acceptable in the Netherlands?

Indeed, that is exactly the question we should be trying to answer. Unfortunately, I am stumped. I have absolutely no idea, not a single clue. Violence (both political violence and ordinary street violence) is increasingly a serious problem in this country, but there's no evident root cause for it, or none that I can see.

Crime figures has been decreasing for ages, football hooliganism has been reduced to throwing insults (still a hot issue, but at least physicial violence has all but disappeared), internationally the Netherlands is often hailed for its 'poldermodel' which favours cooperation over conflict, etc. Yet increasingly people are just beaten to death or shot for no apparent reason, or for political motives. If a clear reason for such behaviour could be found something could finally be done about it, but although everyone has something to say about the issue, noone seems to have any real answers...

[Robert]

Pim Fortuyn wasn't murdered because of any animal-issues by Volkert vd Graaf. vd Graaf voiced that he killed Fortuyn because he feared that Fortuyn would be a disaster for some groups in our society.

The murdere of van Gogh has pinned a paper on his cheast with arabic messages. That's already officially broadcasted by the justice department. (www.nos.nl)

Of course nothing is official, but we can be 95% sure that van Gogh has been killed by an islamitic fundamentalist for the reason that van Gogh has insulted the islam.
I even dare to be sure that the movie in which koran-lines were projected on naked womem-bodies is the main reason.

[Robert]

For the record, november 2nd 2004 comes exactly 911 days after may 6th 2002.

Fortuyn has been killed on may 6th 2002.
I'm sure that Locotus will think I'm too fast on conclusions, but my conclusion is that the murderer of van Gogh had islamitic fundamentalistic motives.

Quiet scary though.
Madrid came 911 days after 911 as well.....
We can put some dates in our agendas I guess..

[laurentius]

Even more reason to kill the terrorists. Uprooting terrorism means restricting access to the roots of radicalization. We are soon becoming a police society watching all the muslims

[Robert]

Go bush

[Pekka]

Well I kind of agree with what laurentius is saying. I mean, I think he's little fired up so maybe I'll explain what I feel he means because I have same thoughts.

Minorities living anywhere are always subjected to racism of some sort. It might be straight up in your face type of thing, or the one that they don't hear about in the street but words get said behind their backs. This happens everywhere and to everyone. This would happen to me in some places, and in here the same happens to other minorities. That's just the way it goes. I'm not saying it's justified, I'm saying that's the way it goes.

So, they have to be extra careful. If I'm a minority somewhere, I make sure I'm a good embassador for my country or what ever and stay of peoples business. Because what I do directly reflects to how my countrymen etc are treated. This is pretty simple so far. And yes, the acts of few makes them all look bad. That might be a racist thing to say if we live in PC laalaaland. But since we live in a real world with real people, the majority gets pissed off.

The difference is, that in the west, most things are good with us. We have prospered and basic needs are usually available for most people. If it wasn't so, the racist leaders would enjoy larger popularity. Because they blame someone else for their own misery. And that tends to be popular idea in bad times. Nationalist do good in those kind of days, without exception.

Now add fuel to the fire and some individual from a minority group takes action and does what we think is totally uncalled hate crime. We assume that we are racist when we think bad about say radical muslims who have not done us wrong, yet. Does anyone in their right mind think they are not racist as well..? Well they are racist enough to salivate on the thought of killing us. And yes I'm talking about the radicals, not the normal people of Islam, who believe in peace and all that good stuff.

To those radicals, it means a lot what Christians and others have done them wrong in the past. They haven't forgotten that. It was bad for them. But we don't think that uhh since that happened to a lot of people who weren't in our team, that we somehow deserve to be struck back. We don't even consider that as an issue anymore. It's in the past. If some radical strikes against us what ever the reason is, it's a hate crime against us and racist act, and we see it as that period.

Now, when these things happens, these individuals put their whole society in danger, in danger of the majority getting openly racist. And in that situation, the snowball effect happens and the minority really gets it bad. That's when the pig gear kicks in, and that's what we need to avoid.

So yes, they are a minority, and yes only a vaining few are in charge of these kind of things, but it's enough if it keeps on happening. And no, in that situation the good and the bad vanishes. On the other hand it's wrong to take action against people who are innocent. But then again, those radical individuals should also have some brains and not kill other people for their own hate filled needs. Unless, the society that is normal part takes STRONG stand against these criminals. But when that doesn't happen.... I'm not justifying it, it's wrong, but it doesn't come as a surprise to me that people are also willing to strike back, even against innocent people.

The best spreads of islamophobia are radicals themselves.

And even in here, we have some racism against muslims. They are free target to piss on. We've had some people burning some restaurants down in the past, and now there are news that about 20 kurds at least are in direct connections with the terrorists, and have been planning to do some bad things in here. Now, you just wait when something actually happens, and it's legal to beat people in here. I'm saying our society is not PC on racism, but we're not really that racist, just more reserved. But if something should happen, we are likely to become very racist and take action. After all this is the vigilants day dream and action takers fantasy place to be. We are kind of homogenous, so we are not used to these kind of things too good yet, but it will get ugly if something happens. I won't be there shouting insults or attacking anyone, but lot of people will be.

The best thing we can do to protect our muslims is to handle these radicals tough and rough ASAP. That way we protect the normal society from getting the undeserved heat and racist attacks. So yes, we need to get them soon and get them hard. For all of our sakes.

[Pekka]

blah, this didn't make any sense, had to edit it

[laurentius]

It still doesnt make much sence, at least not to me. But for your overall agreeing and for the last sentence

This is why I have been talking about killing, or using other ways to eliminate them.

EDIT: OMFG Pekka agrees with me and I agree with him!

[Pekka]

Well crap, anyone who thinks radicalists are just little love and understanding challegend people and we shouldn't be hating on them, well.. uh.. oh..

[germanos]

Originally posted by CyberShy
The murdere of van Gogh has pinned a paper on his cheast with arabic messages. That's already officially broadcasted by the justice department. (www.nos.nl)

Of course nothing is official, but we can be 95% sure that van Gogh has been killed by an islamitic fundamentalist for the reason that van Gogh has insulted the islam.
I even dare to be sure that the movie in which koran-lines were projected on naked womem-bodies is the main reason.

that the text found on van Gogh is in arabic is not a fact, not even on the source you quote.
I have yet to hear that the justice department has confirmed this is the case.


It is good you mention the short film he has made. If the note indeed is in arabic, then it might as well be a '***-for-tat'* by the perpetrator.

*milk-gland

I would be very surprised if your numberorogy hold any signifigance. Madrid wasn't 911 days after 9/11 after all.



On the reason why political violence would be acceptable nowadays in Holland: it's not.
On the famed Dutch tolerance: it does not really exist, and I hold this position for 20 years now. The Dutch tolerance is more like: You can do what you want, as long as it doesn't interfere with me. I still think you're a dickhead though, and you can go stuff it if you come near me.
I think 'it' is getting near to a lot of Dutch nowadays.

Unfortunately, van Gogh did little in bringing people together, quite the opposite IMO.


There has been a commemoration in Amsterdam, and frankly I am quite scared that now van Gogh, with all his diatribes, is now hailed by national and local politicians as the great defender of Free Speech. In fact they condone now his insulting ways that he thought was debate.

I fear that we will see a great surge in insults and violence. Van Gogh's ways will become the norm, he was such a good guy after all