Controversial Dutch Filmmaker Theo van Gogh killed

[Locutus]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
and what the hell this is he is a fat bastard...damn i dont really know what he all said i have to be clear on that....but atleast he tried to change something...most people here already gave up on the problems we have

Change something? He was just throwing insults at everyone he didn't like. Aside from making a few good movies, I never caught him doing anything remotely constructive, he was far too busy being destructive.

Like Fortuyn, he only ever brought up problems, never solutions.

[DeathByTheSword]

well did some well else?...some people are there to show the problems others are there to solve them...excentrix people are very handy and importent for a community they show you things you rather dont want to see...because they are 'problems'

[Pax]

1. I still want to know if he's related to Vincent Van Gogh.

2. Racism is wrong but even racists should have the right to free speech.

3. Promoting free speech and at the same time monitoring or putting other types limits of freedoms on a certain group(muslims) is hypocritical and wrong.

4. There needs to be a solution that allows people of different religions to live together in peace. Live and let live.

5. I did not know that Albert was a muslim???

[DeathByTheSword]

1 yes
2 true
3 freedom of speech Vs. outdated and mutalating costums of a specific group should be contest
4true and ones you have it please call me
5...

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Pax

3. Promoting free speech and at the same time monitoring or putting other types limits of freedoms on a certain group(muslims) is hypocritical and wrong.

You mean like the French govt policy of monitoring incitement at radical mosques?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by DeathByTheSword
well did some well else?

Sure, most issues Van Gogh ever brought up were also on the agenda of politicians.

...some people are there to show the problems others are there to solve them...excentrix people are very handy and importent for a community they show you things you rather dont want to see...because they are 'problems'

To show where the problems are, you don't have to resort to calling people names and insulting them, even if you do have a point once you look beyond those insults. At least Fortuyn usually (though far from always) showed some respect for his opponents, Van Gogh waltzed around like a moron trampling everyone in his path. In many aspects, he was awfully similar to the last disgusting hype we've been having, the Tokkies. The main difference is that he never actually resorted to physical violence. Van Gogh wasn't just eccentric, he was a blunt, rude arsehole (and he wasn't afraid to admit this himself, which is one quality I liked about him; if only more people were so self-aware...). There are better ways to show what's wrong with society than by picking a fight...

Originally posted by Pax
1. I still want to know if he's related to Vincent Van Gogh.

As I posted earlier, he's the grand-grandson of the brother of Vincent (who was also called Theo).

[laurentius]

My turn to "deconstruct" (hihi i know derrida too)

Originally posted by Albert Speer
saying that this guy wasn't a muslim doesn't show any inconsistancies in laurentius' belief that muslims should be exterminated.

Where did I say muslims should be exterminated? I believe its a world wide recognised fact that the RADICAL muslims are a threat to the society where ever they are. Just couple of weeks ago a Kurd living here in Finland unvielded a terrorist network operating here in South-East Finland, they planned to send suicide bombers to Iraq for example. In the meanwhile the christian fundies are maybe planning on handing flyers on the streets. There is a difference dont you think?

Originally posted by our_man
But it does - can't you see? It shows how irrational his argument is. Look back over the posts; you'll see that the only time people addressed Laurentius' remarks (before you came along) was to refute his statement. No-one supported him. Honestly, what do you think was more effective - showing why his argument was ineffectual, or you (indirectly) calling him a racist. You acheived nothing except making yourself a bad guy in this thread, while the others did their bit to show why Laurentius was wrong.

Chew on this Speer. With your Europeans are racist remark, yourself and Laurentius have much more in common than you might think.

How exactly was I wrong? He was shot by a muslim fundamentalist, no? I'm also interested to know what I and AS have in common?

Originally posted by germanos
A sidenote on the threadjack that is going on:
It always surprises me that when an incident that place where apparently a bigot/fundy commits a crime, the vermin crawls out to shout their bigotry/hatred and fundamentalism around.

If this vermin thing is directed at me, **** you too. I contribute to the society much more that you ever have.

Again I firmly believe that radical islamists are a threat we have to take care of. Theres nothing religious about this, they are just psychopaths.


I would like to stop this threadjacking. Anyone wishing to continue this can contact me via PM

[Locutus]

Originally posted by laurentius
How exactly was I wrong? He was shot by a muslim fundamentalist, no?

No, he wasn't, at least not as far as we know so far. You're jumping to conclusions again. He was shot by a 26-year old resident of Amsterdam with a double passport. We don't know anything about his religious or political ideas, we don't know anything about his motive. For all we know he might be an anti-obesity fundie or whatever (assuming such people exist ) That religious fundamentalism is a motive is a very distinct possibility, but at this point nothing more than that.

And even if this guy is a muslim fundie, so what? Like I said, this wasn't the first political assassination in the Netherlands in recent history, but it *would* be the first 'religiously' motivated one. If you ask me, there's a problem in this country that some people in general think it's okay to kill someone if they disagree with them, NOT a problem that muslims think it's okay to kill christians or whatever. It's so much easier to blame everything on outsiders, but sometimes it's just not that simple...

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
what I wonder is if everybody else who has posted in here just blacked out while reading your posts or if they agree with you...

We didn't jump on UberKrux when he posted the precise same things.

I hope Laurentius will get rid of his irrational reaction. However, I'm not feeling like arguing with what looks like a mere gut-instinct that will go away. Should Laurentius hold these positions consistently, however, you bet I'll oppose him.

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Locutus


No, he wasn't, at least not as far as we know so far. You're jumping to conclusions again. He was shot by a 26-year old resident of Amsterdam with a double passport. We don't know anything about his religious or political ideas, we don't know anything about his motive. For all we know he might be an anti-obesity fundie or whatever (assuming such people exist )

why do i suspect that if his note had indicated anti-obesity ideas, your govt would have released it already?

[Locutus]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
why do i suspect that if his note had indicated anti-obesity ideas, your govt would have released it already?

The fact that the killer of Pim Fortuyn was not a muslim but an animal rights activist wasn't revealed immediately either. The Dutch police and justice department are in many ways incompetent, but they do tend to be thorough and rarely reveal much information while investigations are still ongoing.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Locutus


No, he wasn't, at least not as far as we know so far. You're jumping to conclusions again. He was shot by a 26-year old resident of Amsterdam with a double passport. We don't know anything about his religious or political ideas, we don't know anything about his motive. For all we know he might be an anti-obesity fundie or whatever (assuming such people exist ) That religious fundamentalism is a motive is a very distinct possibility, but at this point nothing more than that.

And even if this guy is a muslim fundie, so what? Like I said, this wasn't the first political assassination in the Netherlands in recent history, but it *would* be the first religiously motivated one. If you ask me, there's a problem in this country that some people in general think it's okay to kill someone if they disagree with them, NOT a problem that muslims think it's okay to kill cristians or whatever. It's so much easier to blame everything on outsiders, but sometimes it's just not that simple...

Okay I see your point. But I believe chances that this was a religiously motivated murder are very high. He had just done a movie that addresses the problems radical islamists want to deny. The guy was a moroccan. A coincidence? I dont think so.

Also I know its easy to blame everything on outsiders but I dont see anyone here doing that. It is also too simple to play down a critique you do not wish to address properly by saying its just xenophobia. Again this works in both ways. I assure you i'm not a xenophobic racist. Otherwise I prolly wouldnt be active in Amnesty Int., The Left-Wing Youth, War Resisters Int., UN society, Anti-racist club etc.

If I hate Islam so much would I have taken arabic language courses? Would I have spent hours and hours reading about the history of muslims, Abu'l-Walid Ibn Rushd, better known as Averroes and other Arab philosophers. Because I want to see them exterminated, because I want to see them getting out of Finland. I dont think so.

[laurentius]

Originally posted by Spiffor

We didn't jump on UberKrux when he posted the precise same things.

I hope Laurentius will get rid of his irrational reaction. However, I'm not feeling like arguing with what looks like a mere gut-instinct that will go away. Should Laurentius hold these positions consistently, however, you bet I'll oppose him.

Yeah I admit I get heated up by these people pretty easily. Was my reaction irrational, yes it was. If theres something you disagree and want to perhaps correct, I'm more than happy to argue

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by Locutus


The fact that the killer of Pim Fortuyn was not a muslim but an animal rights activist wasn't revealed immediately either. The Dutch police and justice department are in many ways incompetent, but they do tend to be thorough and rarely reveal much information while investigations are still ongoing.

ok, i'll wait for more info.

[Locutus]

Originally posted by laurentius
Okay I see your point. But I believe chances that this was a religiously motivated murder are very high. He had just done a movie that addresses the problems radical islamists want to deny. The guy was a moroccan. A coincidence? I dont think so.

Yes, there's a very real chance it's a muslim who killed Van Gogh and there's a very real chance his motivations were 'religious', but again, no reason to jump the gun.

Also I know its easy to blame everything on outsiders but I dont see anyone here doing that.

You were all too keen to blame it on muslim fundies. The thing is that even if that's true, the murder of muslim critics by muslim fundies would be a subproblem of a much bigger issue as I mentioned in my last post: the murder of anyone who expresses strong opinions by anyone else who disagrees with those opinions. The root cause in this case is not religious fundamentalism, but an apparent increased acceptability among certain individuals (or possibly groups) of political violence. Personally I find that to be a far more disturbing trend than muslim fundamentalism.

I don't think anyone denies these days that there also exists a problem with muslim fundamentalism, and I never accused you of hating Islam. I very well realise the difference between Islam and whatever it is some morons like OBL and the likes are preaching. But there are very few actual cases of muslim fundamentalism in the Netherlands, and blaming anything bad that happens on muslim fundamentalism only draws attention away from other equally real problems.