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Kerry attacks Allawi, calls him a liar and Bush stooge
Originally posted by Ted Striker
The brave man volunteered to serve his country and earned 3 Purple Hearts and Bush isn't man enough to call him a coward, he has his 3rd party attack dogs do it for him.
Ted, you have got to come in out of the dark. The shadows are scaring you.
I find it fascinating how the "flip-flop" tag has been attached to Kerry, especially in regards to that $87 billion Iraq/Afghanistan spending bill that was voted on last year by Congress. He initially supported the legislation and voted for it. The legislation was then altered — presumably in conference committee between the Senate and House, in order to hammer out differences — to the point where he didn't support it any longer and, thus, he voted against the *altered* version of the bill.
How does that represent a flip-flop? The bill he supported and the bill he voted against were different. They weren't the same. Going on memory alone, I believe language in the first bill would've required that some of the funding going to Iraq be in the form of loans, not grants. The second version of the bill — the one Kerry opposed — had stripped that language, making all the money in the form of grants. In other words, costing the U.S. taxpayer more money.
Hmm. Perhaps I'm simply thinking too much. That's a no-no in U.S. politics.
Gatekeeper
P.S. By the way, all those schools, water lines, roads, power grids, oil lines, etc., we're putting up in Iraq aren't going to matter if they're constantly damaged or destroyed by insurgents and we do nothing (or little) to crush them once and for all. So that's probably why the attacks and kidnappings get more media attention than the "good" stuff. It's hard to put things back in shape in the midst of a guerrilla war.
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
Gatekeeper, what you say it true to a degree. Republicans are being a bit unfair on this issue, but there is an overall pattern of changing positions, even within hours at times, depending on the audience he is addressing.
As to Iraq, what we really need to do is train up the Iraqi's and get out.
Originally posted by Ned
Gatekeeper, what you say it true to a degree. Republicans are being a bit unfair on this issue, but there is an overall pattern of changing positions, even within hours at times, depending on the audience he is addressing.
As to Iraq, what we really need to do is train up the Iraqi's and get out.
Its really hard to judge this sort of thing. If you go by how people vote in Congress its possible to paint ANYONE as a flip-flopper since bits of one good omnibus bill inevitably contradict bits of another good omnibus bill. And with people who talk as much as politicians its ridiuclously easy to take stuff out of context. I'm not sure to what extent Kerry is a flip-flopper, but I'm pretty sure its been exaggerated since good non partisan sources like www.factcheck.org have torn up some Republican claims pretty well and if that's the best they have its not much and then if Kerry is as liberal as Republicans suggest then how the hell can he be staunchly liberal while contradicting himself to please everyone?
That isn't to say that I don't think that Kerry is a slimy grandstanding douchebag and that the prospect of being forced to vote for him doesn't digust me, but I haven't seen any good evidence that he isn't that more of a flip-flopper than the average Senator.
Oh and on the Iraq funding thingie, I'm not going to defend him at all. What he did was mind-numbingly stupid. He was for funding the war but wanted to have it funded as loans to Iraq, not grants which is an idiotic way to fun a war like the Iraq one.
Originally posted by Ned
Gatekeeper, what you say it true to a degree. Republicans are being a bit unfair on this issue, but there is an overall pattern of changing positions, even within hours at times, depending on the audience he is addressing.
As opposed to Bush, who would insist that the sun is shining and the sky is clear, even if it's a storming outside and a massive tornado is spinning toward his home as he speaks. Heh. Kerry and Bush ... an interesting pair of candidates for the presidency. Oh, well. Perhaps the debates will differentiate them to the point that I might vote for one or the other. Then again, I can always go third-, fourth- or fifth-party, since a number of them qualified to appear on the ballot in my state.
As to Iraq, what we really need to do is train up the Iraqi's and get out.
The "Iraqi-ization" of the war in Iraq. Kind of reminds me of South Vietnam in those final years of its existence. At any rate, I tend to agree that, unless more Iraqis are trained for enforcement purposes, we're going to be there for the foreseeable future. And assuming we get them trained properly (and in sufficient numbers), we still have the issue of whether or not they'll actually take law enforcement action against their own citizens. Or not break ranks and run when confronting bona fide insurgents.
Four more years of Bush? Four more years of Iraq.
Gatekeeper
"I may not agree with what you have to say, but I'll die defending your right to say it." — Voltaire
"Wheresoever you go, go with all your heart." — Confucius
For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Oh and on the Iraq funding thingie, I'm not going to defend him at all. What he did was mind-numbingly stupid. He was for funding the war but wanted to have it funded as loans to Iraq, not grants which is an idiotic way to fun a war like the Iraq one.
I agree, though to clarify, he thought that only the $20 billion in reconstruction funds ought to be funded through loans. Of course, it doesn't make all that much of a difference in hindsight given that the Bush Admin funded our corporate welfare mainly through Iraqi oil revenues, without disbursing the vast majority of reconstruction funds (and dipping into it to fund the military).
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
What's your point? You honestly think there would be absolutely no more attempts at funding the war if that bill were defeated?
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
As opposed to Bush, who would insist that the sun is shining and the sky is clear, even if it's a storming outside and a massive tornado is spinning toward his home as he speaks. Heh. Kerry and Bush ... an interesting pair of candidates for the presidency.
Gatekeeper, please be honest and fair here. Bush constantly says things are going to be hard and not easy, and he does not say that all problems are solved in Iraq. Democrats are very fond of misquoting him in the form of setting up a straw man, and then knocking that strawman down. If you want examples, I can give you examples.
The "Iraqi-ization" of the war in Iraq. Kind of reminds me of South Vietnam in those final years of its existence. At any rate, I tend to agree that, unless more Iraqis are trained for enforcement purposes, we're going to be there for the foreseeable future. And assuming we get them trained properly (and in sufficient numbers), we still have the issue of whether or not they'll actually take law enforcement action against their own citizens. Or not break ranks and run when confronting bona fide insurgents.
Four more years of Bush? Four more years of Iraq.
Gatekeeper
It all depends on how soon the Iraqi forces can take over. It took Nixon 3 1/2 years to get our troops out of Vietnam after he began the withdrawal in the summer of '69.
Originally posted by Ramo
What's your point? You honestly think there would be absolutely no more attempts at funding the war if that bill were defeated?
Ramo, Kerry, knowing that the bill would pass with overwhelming support in the Senate, could have voted yes. Had he done so, he would not now be acused of abandoning our troops in the field as he advocated once before in the case of Vietnam. But no, he voted against the bill, as did his VP choice, in order to curry favor with the Deaneacs and you know it.
Fortunately, it appears that NATO is going to increase its training forces in Iraq. This should speed up the process of getting a legitimate force in the field.
I was encouraged by Allawi's positive outlook. When he stated that 15 of the 18 provinces in Iraq could hold elections today from a security standpoint, it really brought home how much the media is fo0cusing on the negative.
I have not been suprised by the insurgencey in Iraq...what has suprised me is how tamely we have dealt with it. The only reason I can think of is that we don't want the general population to believe that we are real hard-asses. I think that they would respect us more, however, if we had finished the job in Fallujah to start with.
All in all, I believe in the Iraqi peoples' ability to overcome those that wish to cause strife and turmoil in their country.
"I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003
Ramo, Kerry, knowing that the bill would pass with overwhelming support in the Senate, could have voted yes. Had he done so, he would not now be acused of abandoning our troops in the field as he advocated once before in the case of Vietnam. But no, he voted against the bill, as did his VP choice, in order to curry favor with the Deaneacs and you know it.
It was a protest vote, Ned. It didn't make a difference either way. I strongly disagreed with his reasons for opposing it, but accusing him or Edwards of not wanting to support the troops, etc. is intellectually dishonest.
I was encouraged by Allawi's positive outlook. When he stated that 15 of the 18 provinces in Iraq could hold elections today from a security standpoint, it really brought home how much the media is fo0cusing on the negative.
There isn't any particular reason to believe him.
"Beware of the man who works hard to learn something, learns it, and finds himself no wiser than before. He is full of murderous resentment of people who are ignorant without having come by their ignorance the hard way. "
-Bokonon
Kind of reminds me of South Vietnam in those final years of its existence. At any rate, I tend to agree that, unless more Iraqis are trained for enforcement purposes, we're going to be there for the foreseeable future. And assuming we get them trained properly (and in sufficient numbers), we still have the issue of whether or not they'll actually take law enforcement action against their own citizens. Or not break ranks and run when confronting bona fide insurgents.
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