The Social Contract?

[David Floyd]

Well, then, if you are saying that you support other social programs, yet not Social Security, then we seem to have a consistency problem, given that you said earlier you were not in favor of forcing me to help others.

Backtracking, or did I misunderstand?

[Ben Kenobi]

No politician will ever let their constituants' grandparents be kicked out onto the streets.

I'm sure that's why they don't mind letting their constituents get kicked out on the streets.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's why it is a social contract, not a family contract. That's also why it is a concept of the Enlightenment. People were banded together in families and small communities for a long time before it seemed wise to acknowledge that there are obligations beyond these small groups to the larger group of all citizens.

And that's not different from what I said earlier. They built on the base of family, or filial responsibility to form a social contract.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
che,

Actually, special interest groups tend to be a minority viewpoint - take the environmental lobby, for example.

Amajority of Americans believe environmental regulations should be tightened.

Or lobbyists for attorneys.

While most people might agree that sometimes judgements go to far, the vast majority of Americans perfer to have a lawyer when they need one.

In some cases the special interests represent a majority in a certain constituency,

In most cases, when someone refers to a "special interest" they generall mean someone who represents a majority viewpoint. It's a way of trying to cut it down, to belittle it. No one ever refers to the NRA as a special interest group, even though it represents a distinct minority. Women are a special interest group, despite being 52% of the population. Working people are a special interest group, even though they are the vast majority of the population. Business owners are never a special interest group.

Now, the types of things I support are generally beneficial to businesses, but that's because I believe in the free market.

Most businesses hate the free market, except for idelouges like yourself. Business tends to be risk adverse, and competition produces risk.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, then, if you are saying that you support other social programs, yet not Social Security, then we seem to have a consistency problem, given that you said earlier you were not in favor of forcing me to help others.

Medicare is forcing you to help others?

Paying for the public school system is forcing you to help others?

As Che has already stated, no one is forcing you to pay for these things. If you don't want to pay for them, you are free to leave the country.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Do YOU support the legalization of armed robbery?

Taxation isn't robbery just because you call it robbery any more than wage slavery is really slavery just cuz I call it slavery. It's a propaganda term and you know it.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As Che has already stated, no one is forcing you to pay for these things. If you don't want to pay for them, you are free to leave the country.

That was someone else, though I agree. If you don't wish to live by the rules of the group, you are free to leave the group (or try and change the rules).

[Ben Kenobi]

No, I was referring to your point, obliquely, that you don't have to pay into Social Security.

[David Floyd]

Amajority of Americans believe environmental regulations should be tightened.

Perhaps, but the majority of Americans are emphatically NOT in line with the Sierra Club or the Kyoto Accords.

While most people might agree that sometimes judgements go to far, the vast majority of Americans perfer to have a lawyer when they need one.

Which ignores the issue that attorney lobbyist groups prevent serious tort reform.

In most cases, when someone refers to a "special interest" they generall mean someone who represents a majority viewpoint.

But we just established that most people don't share the view that we should have SERIOUS environmental reform/regulations or the view that multi-billion dollar punitive damages are fair.

Most businesses hate the free market

Well, the ones that rely on corporate welfare and subsidies certainly do, anyway

I bet Microsoft wouldn't mind, though.

Taxation isn't robbery just because you call it robbery any more than wage slavery is really slavery just cuz I call it slavery. It's a propaganda term and you know it.

Just because YOU call it taxation doesn't mean it isn't robbery. Sure, if the connotation of "robbery" is "illegal", you may have a point, but the connotation of "robbery", "stealing", etc., has more to do with taking what is mine without my permission.

BK,

Medicare is forcing you to help others?

Am I paying for it, even if I don't need/want to use it?

Paying for the public school system is forcing you to help others?

Again, am I paying for it, even if I don't want/need to use it?

As Che has already stated, no one is forcing you to pay for these things. If you don't want to pay for them, you are free to leave the country.

Then by the same argument, Social Security isn't coercive, because I'm free to leave. And by the way, if you don't like abortion, you shouldn't crusade against it, you should just leave the country and maybe move to the Vatican. Come on

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

And that's not different from what I said earlier. They built on the base of family, or filial responsibility to form a social contract.

It's a bit different from what you said. You said it applied to families and then was widened to neighbours, where in fact it was intended immediately to be applied to all of the citizens of a state.

We all derive some benefit from being bound together and we all owe some benefit to all who are bound to us.

Well, except for DF, he should be deposited on an unihabited island and be free to live out his dreams of 'freedom'.

[David Floyd]

If you don't wish to live by the rules of the group, you are free to leave the group (or try and change the rules).

Exactly! BK and others are trying to invalidate my argument by telling me I should just leave the country if I don't like it - they are ignoring the "trying to change the rules" aspect. I can't change the rules by myself, but I can certainly exchange in discourse about the rules, and I think that those who support the current system owe a better response than "If you don't like it, leave".

[David Floyd]

Well, except for DF, he should be deposited on an unihabited island and be free to live out his dreams of 'freedom'.

I'm not an anarchist, nor do I wish to be a hermit. Keep building up strawmen, though

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
As Che has already stated, no one is forcing you to pay for these things. If you don't want to pay for them, you are free to leave the country.

Allowing you to leave is not justification for unfair treatment.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by David Floyd
Perhaps, but the majority of Americans are emphatically NOT in line with the Sierra Club or the Kyoto Accords.

The Sierra Club is exceedingly moderate. Kyoto was just bad cuz all it did was encourage companies to move to the 3rd world to avoid having to insteall new technologies.

Which ignores the issue that attorney lobbyist groups prevent serious tort reform.

Serious tort reform, i.e., abolishing American's access to tort. The only people who want serious tort reform are the companies who make defective products and doctors who hurt their patients.

But we just established that most people don't share the view that we should have SERIOUS environmental reform/regulations or the view that multi-billion dollar punitive damages are fair.

No, you asserted those untrue facts, which have not been borne out in poll after poll.

Just because YOU call it taxation doesn't mean it isn't robbery. Sure, if the connotation of "robbery" is "illegal", you may have a point,

Robbery is taking something illegally. When you jail someone, you take something from them (their freedom) against their will. We both say it's justified, however. The difference between you and I is that I see taxation as justified. The fact you don't agree is as meaningless as the fact that criminals don't agree with being jailed.

[notyoueither]

Originally posted by David Floyd


I'm not an anarchist, nor do I wish to be a hermit. Keep building up strawmen, though

It's not a strawman. You profess to not want to be responsible for any but yourself. Go ahead. Be free.