Attackers seize Russian school II(continued)

[muxec]

Many ethnic Chechens do not want to be separate...

You know, some Osetins want to be separate... And some Tatars want to be separate... And Dagestanians may want to be separate... And some Ingushians want to be separate. Now look at their actions. Dagestanians and Tatars are liberal muslims (although some of them are christian or atheist) (considered as fake muslim by most of the muslim countries). Other nations controlled by Russia are either liberal muslims, christians or atheists. Remember that Russian liberal Islam is considered fake Islam by the must influantial muslim states and communities.

Although Russia is poor country it still gave something to these nation. Electricity and education I'd say.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Kropotkin
Dr. Strangelove, I've read a few editorials and tried to summarize them below. it seems like they, from left to right, are keeping the same line as most europeans seems to do against terrorism in Israel or against the US; The hardline often leads to even more terrorism in the long run, and a change of direction is needed. Or from an american point of view; they are all a bunch of pinko treehuggers. I must however add that they all show no form of understanding whatsoever for the terrorists.

Dagens Nyheter:
(biggest morning paper, center-right)
Says that there's actually some truth to Putin's claim that this is part of international terrorism, but that it's more complex than that as there doesn't seem to be any coherent structure amoungst chechnian guerilla-groups. While they see a new generation of leaders inspired by Wahhabism they also point to the bloody history of chechnia. The author of their analysis does not in any way defend the acts of the terrorists but also points out that as the atrocities against civilian chechnians has became worse over time, so has also the acts of the terrorists. or, to put in other words; it seems like this journalist argues that violence breeds more violence. The papers editorial goes on in the same fashion.

In what way have atrocities aginst Chechens worsened? Have there been any attacks by the RSF since the last elections?

Svenska Dagbladet:
(the second morning paper. Right wing)
Yesterdays editorial argues that it has been the hardline politics of Putin that have closed out moderate forces from an open debate and lead the conflict into the hands of terrorists. The author believes that it's up to Putin to make something that can win the hearts and minds of the chechnian population, and in this way stop an end to the breeding ground for terrorism and radicalism. However, he's sceptical that Putin would be the man to do this. The only possibilty is international pressure that would make Russia deal with the chechnian question and break the deadlock where war has become the normal situation in the caucasus.

Are they blind to the fact that the terrorists belong to hard core factions that will accept nothing less than the victory of Islam over all other peoples in the region?
Was the government of the former Islamist state of Chechnya duly elected or was it self-appointed? Is this the future of the world supported by the so-called humanitarian "socialists" of Sweden? The folks who took over that school would have much less sufferance for :moderates than Putnin.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by muxec
Many ethnic Chechens do not want to be separate...

You know, some Osetins want to be separate... And some Tatars want to be separate... And Dagestanians may want to be separate... And some Ingushians want to be separate. Now look at their actions. Dagestanians and Tatars are liberal muslims (although some of them are christian or atheist) (considered as fake muslim by most of the muslim countries). Other nations controlled by Russia are either liberal muslims, christians or atheists. Remember that Russian liberal Islam is considered fake Islam by the must influantial muslim states and communities.

Although Russia is poor country it still gave something to these nation. Electricity and education I'd say.

Heck, some Viriginians and some Wyomingers want independence. I don't see euro-socialists wringing their hands over them.

[Ted Striker]

By the way, for those of you talking about Grozny, maybe I should come back with pictures of Najaf, Baghdad, or Falujah. We dropped cruise missles down on a restuarant because we though Saddam was there.

Najaf especially has been blown to shreds. Is that the USA's fault? Or was it the terrorists who sought refuge there?

Civilans have been accidentally killed in Iraq in large numbers. No professional soldier in his right mind would do this. But it happens.

These aren't my accounts. They are from some of the Marines who have returned home from there.

So anyone who is criticising Putin and Russia needs to criticize Bush and the USA.

Does Russia do things in a way that would be more prone to killing civilians? Probably?

But we are doing the same thing. Somone said on the radio, a 500 pound "precision" bomb is still a 500 pound bomb.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by lightblue
The "Chechens" as they are referred to here numerous times actually consist of a large number of groups, most of whom don't get along too well with eachother. You have the separtist nationalist, the jihadis, random bandits and organised crime all sticking their oar in. Some are violent, some are not, some use terrorism and kidnapping, others do not. So tarring all the groups with the same jihadi brush doesn't do the real situation any justice.

EXACTLY

Well said.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove
Who cares whether any of them moved to Afghanistan or not? In the late 1990s the Chechen state was ruled by a Taliban like regime. Even if you question how much support they gave to the proxy fighters who invaded Dagestan, you can't ignore their internal human rights violations, like as I mentioned, executing gays. They also removed the civil rights of women and non-Muslims. In fact with regards to their internal policies they marched lock-step with the Taliban regime in Afghanistan. The systematic human rights abuses of the Chechen state were recorded in their law books and are a matter of public record. The former Chechen regime had no more legitimacy than the former Taliban regime of Afghanistan.

[Kropotkin]

Hey, don't ask me. I just read the stuff!

1) No, I don't know how the atrocities aginst Chechens worsened, I myself was clearly under the impression that most of the opposition was smashed by now and as a result, violence against civilians had dropped considerably.

2) No, they are not exacly 'blind' to that. they are just of the opinion that the hard line against chechnian seperatists in general has only lead to the creation of a new generation of islamic fundamentalists at the expense of any more moderate seperatists.

[Dr Strangelove]

I believe that there is a segment of the muslim community that is about as rational as Osama himsellf. Let's see, here's a guy whose home country, Saudi Arabia, is governed by a group he doesn't like because they pander too much to non-Muslims. This pandering consists of the most strict legal code in the world, and includes severe restrictions upon where the non-Muslims can live and travel. A dictator, Saddam Hussein, whom this man loathes even more than the government of his home country invades a neighbor of his home country and also makes threats against his home country. His home country enlists the aid of the only people able to off set the threat of the dictator, the United States and its allies. Is Osama grateful? Heck no, he's livid with anger. Not that the allies usurped the government of his country. Heck no, they were sequestered off like mere slaves. Not that Osama would have been keen upon surrendering his home country to Hussein. Not that any of these infidels ever came within 100 miles of his precious Mecca. God only knows how outraged the Muslim world would be if any non-Muslim nation ever discriminated aginst Muslims in such a fashion. Since then however Osama has been conducting a jihad against the US.....for saving his country!

You're probably going to say that this is an overly simplified analysis of the situation, but who cares? The fact that these factions are motivated by such delusional ideas, even if their delusions are not their sole motivation, means that making peace with them will not be possible by rational negotiated means. There will be peace only when the rest of the Muslim world community takes reponsibility for them and takes whatever steps are necessary to neutralize them. They are going to have to have the courage to openly oppose them, to censor the hate talk, to counter-educate the young, to isolate the bigots, and if necessary to use force.

[Ted Striker]

Once again, well said Doc.

[Ted Striker]

.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by muxec
Chechen separatists= Muslim fanatics

Same sources of funding
Same ideology
Same men (10 arabs among terrorists who captured the school)
Same goals
Same means
.

If we give them independency we'll have one more state of terror.

Bravo. Very deep analise of situation
Truth is that after so many fight against Russians, Chechenians become more and more despaired. But You can't just blame them for it. Truth is that after regaining the independance, the state would probably have problems with terrorism, but that's no reason not to give it to them. It's fight against Russia that encourages terrorists, just like fight against Israel ecourages Palestinians to terrorism. Giving them independance would probably mean decreasing of terrorism, not the other way round.
Israel and Russia don't fight terrorism. They fight against nations which, also because of lack of another way of harming the enemy, chose this way. It's a difference.
Yes, Palestinians and Chechens deserve comdemnation for using this way of fight. At least in Israel, where free press exists, they could get world attention in another way. But still, terrorism isn't the only problem here. Terrorism is a problem, but also is an indication of a problem. When they do not make terrorist attacks, Chechens are forgotten by the rest of the world. You can't just fight terrorism, You have to fight the root of the terrorism too, and it is Russian occupation and brutal politics in Chechenia.

[Shi Huangdi]

I switched my flag and location when terrorists knocked down the Russian planes. It doesn't seem as though I'll need to change back for a while.

I can't express how disgusted I am with these terrorist scum. To go in and murder so many children shows them to barbarian inhumane evil scum. Truly, the Jihadists are the sucsessors to the fascists of the 40's as the greatest threat to civilization and humanity and need to be crushed.

[Shi Huangdi]

Anthem of the Russian Federation
(English translation)

Music by Alexander Alexandrov
Words by Sergei Mikhalkov

1st stanza:

Russia, our holy country!
Russia, our beloved country!
A mighty will, a great glory,
Are your inheritance for all time!

Refrain:

Be glorious, our free Fatherland!
Eternal union of fraternal peoples,
Common wisdom given by our forebears,
Be glorious, our country! We are proud of you!

2nd stanza:

From the southern seas to the polar region
Spread our forests and fields.
You are unique in the world, inimitable,
Native land protected by God!

3dr stanza:

Wide spaces for dreams and for living
Are opened for us by the coming years
Faithfulness to our country gives us strength
Thus it was, so it is and always will be!

[Kidlicious]

Originally posted by Shi Huangdi
Truly, the Jihadists are the sucsessors to the fascists of the 40's as the greatest threat to civilization and humanity and need to be crushed.

Yep, and some here seem to support independence for them. No ****ing way!

[Heresson]

Read my post. It's not Jihadists the demand independance, but Chechens. Part of them is jihadists, just like part of Saudis or part of citizens of Iraq and part of any state with Muslim population. Do You wish to take independance from all of them?