Attackers seize Russian school II(continued)

[muxec]

Originally posted by Myrddin
When were you last in Ashgabat?

Newer, my friends lived there

[Serb]

Originally posted by Sprayber


I don't remember much more than lip service being said as Russia bombed Grozny. Made the evening news a few times. That was about it here in the US.

Oh come on, I read western news sites, and most of them portray situation like- small, but proud people being opressed by evil imperialist Russians. I don't remeber your reaction to invasion of this proud and honarable people to Dagestan.

Do you see no reason for Chechens to hate Russia?

Sure I see. Chechens and Russians are enemies and always were enemies. It started centuries ago. We are too different, our cultures are different, our morales are different, our religions are different, we are simply plain different.
Most of you believes that Russians are the worsest ****ers ever walked this planef and can't imagine that someone could be worse. I've never made statements like this before, because it's pretty stupid to offence entire people, but Chechens have a very long history of violence. They were damn cruel and violent since the beggining. I can't remember any other culture where pillage and banditism considers as proper if not the only deed for an adult man. It comes from location I guess, they lived high in the mountains and pillaged nearby volleys since the beggining of time. And after such raids there were no survivors usually, they killed everyone. It was their way of life for many centuries, which resulted in their traditions and their neighbours sayings like "if your horse was stolen- find Chechen". Many of you believe that Chechen are nice people in white robes, who never hurt anyone and it's Russian who always were a bloody butchers and criminals. Russians in no way are inoccent shining knights on white horses as Heresson says, but Chechens aren't angels too and always loved to cut the throats of their prisoners, and were slave dealers for centuries. Today Chechen mafia has the same reputation in Russia as Russian mafia abroad (and since you call Russians everyone from former SU, you may not know that some of the guys whom you call Russians are in fact people from Caucasus, including Chechen).
So in no way they are inoccent, opressed angels. They have a brutal and violent history.
Russians came there at the first place, becuse their communication lines to Georgia, which entered Russian Empire by its own will, seeking protection from the Ottomans, was constantly under attacks of Chechen raiders- Abreks. They simply pillaged and razed any settlements in volleys, how they did for centuries and sold slaves to Turkey. There were no other reasons to fight them, they had nothing of value for Russsian Empire, NOTHING, and empires usually do not conquer out of entertaining, becuse war it's a costly thing.
Chechens are good fighters, very good, because fighting was always a major part of thier way of life, but Russians knows how to fight too and so we fought for centuries, and to be honest now both sides hate each other and have thousands of reasons for that and not a single reason to like each other.

I mean I can see why different groups of muslims would hate the US.

For Osama and his gang of mother****ers Russia is same devil as USA and he never disguised that.

Doesn't stop me from knowing that they need to be dealt with but I'm curious if you see if you see the source of their hatred.

the source of their heatred- becuse their Russians against whom they fought for centuries and who did many bad things to them. The source of Russian hatred- becuase they are Chechens whom their fought for centuries and who did many bad things to them.

And I know this is a tramatic time and I'm not trying to get anyone upset. I'm just asking for a little calm before Russia goes off blowing the **** out of everyone. It's something that American leaders should have taken more time to do.

I don't think Russia will turn Chechnya into glass. It would be pretty stupid, just a punishing raid. And punishing raids do not solve the problem, they create new problems. What we need is to increase our security inside the country, perhaps by price of some freedoms, anyhow. I don't care how, but this shouldn't happen again. Also we had to find all those f*ckers and kill them, all terrorists, all their camps, no matter where, if will find some camps in Quatar or anywhere else we should press their government to bomb their camps to the ground or Russian forces under UN banner would do it. I guess we should go to UN with new kind of global anti-terrorist threaty. All countries should destroy terrorist camps on their territory, otherwise terrorism will never die. Those vahhabites would migrate from one country to another and still attack over and over again.

Of course I'll just be called a terrorist supporter.

And I of course just be called an imperial Russian nazi, who says that Chechen people are evil and Russians are good.
Whatever, I just said what I think about history of Russian-Chechen relationships. I've a friend who was there during first Chechen war and I read letters of Russian refugies who fleed from Chechnya before first Chechen war, because they didn't like how Chechens decorade thier fences by Russian entrails, rap and then immidiently kill Russian woman and so on. I can assure that those guys could tell you much more about why our people don't like each other, but 90% of their speech would be pure swear and curse.

[Pyrodrew]

Some Putin Comments and Update

Russian Town Mourns As Putin Vows Fight

17 minutes ago

By MIKE ECKEL, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Wails of mourning echoed through the streets of this southern Russian town on Sunday, and the region's top police officer reportedly resigned in the wake of the school hostage-taking that left more than 350 people dead — nearly half of them children.


A shaken President Vladimir Putin (news - web sites) went on national television Saturday to make a rare and candid admission of Russian weakness in the face of an "all-out war" by terrorists. He said Russians must mobilize against terrorism and promised wide-ranging reforms to toughen security forces and purge corruption.


"We showed weakness, and weak people are beaten," he said in a speech aimed at addressing the grief, shock and anger felt by many after a string of terrorist attacks that have killed some 450 people in the past two weeks, apparently in connection with the war in Chechnya (news - web sites).


Dozens of men dug graves in a football field-sized tract next to the Beslan cemetery on Sunday morning, while surveyors across the road marked out new plots with wooden stakes and string. Coffin lids stood outside the entrances to apartment buildings, along with wooden planks bearing the names of victims who were to be buried in funerals beginning later Sunday. Wailing could be heard from courtyards where families were preparing ritual meals.


Some 260 people were reported missing after the three-day hostage crisis, which ended in a bloody wave of explosions and gunfire Friday when militants set off bombs rigged in the school gymnasium and commandos stormed the building. Russian media speculated that some of the missing could be among the wounded who were brought to various hospitals in the southern Russian region.


Outside the shattered gymnasium on Sunday, Svetlana Debloyeva, 42, clutched a picture of her 11-year-old son Zaur, one of those unaccounted for.


"I lost my boy," she cried as she approached the building, where she had been squeezed in among the more than 1,100 hostages.


Regional Emergency Situations Minister Boris Dzgoyev said Sunday that 326 people, including 159 children, were killed — three of them children who died overnight. More than 540 people were wounded — mostly children. Medical officials said 423 people remained hospitalized Sunday, the ITAR-Tass news agency reported.


Dzgoyev also said 35 attackers — heavily-armed and explosive-laden men and women who were reportedly demanding independence for Chechnya — were killed in 10 hours of battles that shook the area around the school with gunfire and explosions. Including the militants, 361 people died in the tragedy.


"What happened was a terrorist act that was inhuman and unprecedented in its cruelty," Putin said in his televised speech. "It is a challenge not to the president, the parliament and the government but a challenge to all of Russia, to all of our people. It is an attack on our nation."


Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses, but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials. He said Russians could no longer live "carefree" and must all confront terrorism.


Measures would be taken, Putin promised, to overhaul the law enforcement organs, which he acknowledged had been infected by corruption, and tighten borders.


"We are obliged to create a much more effective security system and to demand action from our law enforcement organs that would be adequate to the level and scale of the new threats," he said.


North Ossetian Interior Minister Kazbek Dzantiyev submitted his resignation on Sunday morning, ITAR-Tass and the Interfax news agency reported.


"After what happened in Beslan, I don't have the right to occupy this post as an officer and as a man," ITAR-Tass quoted him as saying.


ITAR-Tass quoted an unidentified intelligence official as saying that the school assault was financed by Abu Omar As-Seyf, an Arab who allegedly represents al-Qaida in Chechnya, and directed by Chechen rebel leader Shamil Basayev.


The militants seized the school Wednesday on what was to have been the first day of class after summer vacation. Children, along with parents who had been dropping them off, were herded into the gym, which the militants quickly wired with explosives.


One survivor, Sima Albegova, told the Kommersant newspaper she asked the militants why the captives were taken. "Because you vote for your Putin," she quoted one as saying.

Another freed hostage said a militant told her, "If Putin doesn't withdraw forces from Chechnya and doesn't free our arrested brothers, we'll blow everything up," according to the Moskovsky Komsomolets newspaper.

Russian officials said the bloodshed began when explosions were apparently set off by the militants — possibly by accident — as emergency workers entered the school courtyard to collect the bodies of hostages killed in the initial raid Wednesday.

Hostages fled during the blasts, and the militants opened fire on them, prompting security forces to return fire and commandos to move in, officials said.

The explosions tore through the roof of the gymnasium, sending wreckage down on hostages, killing many. Many survivors emerged naked covered in ashes and soot, their feet bloody from jumping barefoot out of broken windows to escape.

http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&u=/ap/20040905/ap_on_re_eu/russia_school_seizure&cid=518&ncid=716

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
Even if you want freedom for Chechens think about Chechen females now they are free citizen but under muslim dictature they will be slaves. Have pitty on them.

Many ethnic Turkmens in Turkmenistan and many of them females say that Russia would better not give independency to Turkmenistan.

What always amuse me about western approach is that they saying that removal of Saddam was a good thing, becuase Iraqis have more freedom now. Oppression of Iraqis pale in coparison oppression of Chechens by vahhabites 1996-1999. It's absolutely the same kind of oppression what Afghani had under the Taliban regime. Those two regimes are twins brothers. After 1996 truce, Chechens were free to do whatever they wanted. They had all atributes of independent state- there were no foreign (in this case Russian) soldiers and cops on their territory, they had their own flag, hymn, their own army, thier own KGB, their own embassies worldwide, they were absolutely out of Kremlin's control, Russian constitution doesn't worked there. As Dr. Strangelove already mentioned, they introduced their own medieval Sharia laws with such pretty things as death penalty for homosexuality, death penalty for marital infidelity (gulty women beaten to death with stones), they cut off hands of thieves and many other beautyfull things. Some people here said about secularized Chechenya? Hmmm... surelly there are not aware that only one religion was allowed both in Taliban and independet Chechen state and that Christians and Orthodox muslims who did support vahhabism quite often were publicly executed - burned alive or simply shot on squares of both in Afghanistan and Chechnya. In 1996-1999 vahhabites installed a reign of terror in Chechnya, with such fine atributes as slavery, and tortues. Saddam in comparison with those guys a old, good Santa. So when someone says that removal of Saddam was a good thing, becuase it brough more freedom for Iraqis, while at the same time says that Russians returned to chechnya in 1999 after invasion of Dagestan to oppress Chechens, I laugh. It's a perfect example of double standards. Some Chechens welcomed Russian troops, way better and imidiently joined them in fight agaist vahhabites, way faster, than Iraqis meet and joined American troops in Iraq.
They former president Kadyrov, who was killed at May 9, this year, and who was a spiritual leader of all Chechens during first war, with his troops joined Russian forces when they entered his villge after a single shot. Chechens live in villages, and one such village it's a big community, like a big family, a clan. His clan joined Russians, despite they were death enemies just three years ago, becuse his people didn't accepted vahhabism and remain muslims, just like their spiritual leader.
Chechens were de-facto independent for three years, but this independence was way worse than 'Russian oppression". And when somebody says that results of referendum where Chechens decided to stay in Russian Federation, elected their president and approved their constitution were flawed, I doubt that, becuase I think that Chechens really had no choice, but vote for that, becuase they experienced what is alternative- the medieval reign of vahhabites is waaaaaaaay worse.

[Serb]

Putin took a defiant tone, acknowledging Russia's weaknesses, but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, foreign foes seeking to tear apart Russia and on corrupt officials.

How nice, so he mentioned Soviet Union once in his speech, now it calls- "but blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union, "


Do you want to know what exactly he said?
He said: "Íî, íåñìîòðÿ íà âñå òðóäíîñòè, íàì óäàëîñü ñîõðàíèòü ÿäðî ýòîãî ãèãàíòà - Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà. È ìû íàçâàëè íîâóþ ñòðàíó Ðîññèéñêîé Ôåäåðàöèåé."

It means- "despite difficulties we were able to save main body of this giant (the Soviet Union) and we called new country the Russian Federation.

That's all. And how the hell it could be "blaming it on the fall of the Soviet Union"?
Western journalists, nice work

Full text of his speech for guys who can read our monkey language.

http://www.rambler.ru/db/news/msg.html?s=260005083&mid=5003054

[Serb]

Minister of internal affairs of North Ossetia, general-leutenant Kazbek Dzantiev made written statement about retirement. He said - as an officer, I can't occupy my post after this tragedy.

[muxec]

Serb, and Putin insulted western world with his speech

â îäíî÷àñüå îêàçàëàñü íå çàùèùåííîé íè ñ Çàïàäà, íè ñ Âîñòîêà.

Did he mean that Scandinavians are evil?

äðóãèå - èì ïîìîãàþò. Ïîìîãàþò, ïîëàãàÿ, ÷òî Ðîññèÿ - êàê îäíà èç êðóïíåéøèõ ÿäåðíûõ äåðæàâ - åùå ïðåäñòàâëÿåò äëÿ íèõ óãðîçó

And USA is also a threat to Russia, right?

Ìû æèâåì â óñëîâèÿõ îáîñòðèâøèõñÿ âíóòðåííèõ êîíôëèêòîâ

It's a domestic conflict, right? And 10 arab mercenaries are in fact chechens, not Syrians, not Saudis and indeed not Palestinians.

Anyway the translation of his speech was not excellent but good enough

[Serb]

Originally posted by Vince278


Please, don't give him any ideas.

I know how it feels to be a parent. I have six kids. My youngest (21 months old) just broke his arm 6 hours ago. Yet, I feel lucky compared to what the parents over there are going through. My heart and prayers go out to them. I've put my nationalism aside because right now its more important to just be human.

oops, didn't notice this.
I hope you kid will be all right.

[muxec]

Ðîññèÿ âåëèêàÿ íàøà äåðæàâà,
Ðîññèÿ ëþáèìàÿ íàøà ñòðàíà!
Ïîñìîòðèøü íàëåâî, ïîñìîòðèøü íàïðàâî-
Îõ, ñêîëüêî æå òóò, èçâèíèòå, ãîâíà.

Ñëàâñÿ îòå÷åñòâî íàøå íåõèëîå,
Ðàçíûõ íàðîäîâ áóðëÿùèé êîìïîò,
Êàæäûé êóëèê ëèøü ñâî¸ xâàëèò, ìèëîå;
Êàæäûé ãîòîâ çà íåãî äàòü âñåì â ðîò

@Serb

[The Mad Monk]

I don't have the typeface, so it's all wailing greek to me.

[muxec]

Originally posted by The Mad Monk
I don't have the typeface, so it's all wailing greek to me.

It's a parody on Russian hymn. And previous messages quoted Putin who said about mysterious foreighn powers that are still afraid of Russia

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
Serb, and Putin insulted western world with his speech

Did he mean that Scandinavians are evil?

"â îäíî÷àñüå îêàçàëàñü íå çàùèùåííîé íè ñ Çàïàäà, íè ñ Âîñòîêà."
Scandinavians? WTF? Where is a single word about Scandinavians?
He said plain fact- after collapse of the USSR old system of frontier security was destroyed, becuase frontiers changed, both western frontiers and eastern frontiers.
It's plain fact. And how the hell it's related to Scandinavians?

And USA is also a threat to Russia, right?

Where is a single word about USA again?
He said - some countries help them, since they believe that Russia as great nuclear power is still threaten them and terrorism in this case is just a tool to weaken Russia.

It's a domestic conflict, right? And 10 arab mercenaries are in fact chechens, not Syrians, not Saudis and indeed not Palestinians.

Where do you get the information about FSB lying about ten Arabs among terrorists? Who told you they are Chechens, not Arabs?
Anyhow, how can you explain BLACK terrorist?. Chechens have a black hair, not a black skin.

Anyway the translation of his speech was not excellent but good enough

Ïðè æåëàíèè- êàæäûé ñëûøèò òî, ÷òî îí õîòåë áû óñëûøàòü è ïåðåñêàçûâàåò òàê êàê õî÷åò.

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
Ðîññèÿ âåëèêàÿ íàøà äåðæàâà,
Ðîññèÿ ëþáèìàÿ íàøà ñòðàíà!
Ïîñìîòðèøü íàëåâî, ïîñìîòðèøü íàïðàâî-
Îõ, ñêîëüêî æå òóò, èçâèíèòå, ãîâíà.

Ñëàâñÿ îòå÷åñòâî íàøå íåõèëîå,
Ðàçíûõ íàðîäîâ áóðëÿùèé êîìïîò,
Êàæäûé êóëèê ëèøü ñâî¸ xâàëèò, ìèëîå;
Êàæäûé ãîòîâ çà íåãî äàòü âñåì â ðîò

@Serb

Ïîøåë íà õóé. Õâàëè ñâîþ íîâóþ ðîäèíó.

[muxec]

He said plain fact- after collapse of the USSR old system of frontier security was destroyed, becuase frontiers changed, both western frontiers and eastern frontiers.

Western frontier of Russia is Finland, i guess

Where do you get the information about FSB lying about ten Arabs among terrorists? Who told you they are Chechens, not Arabs?
Anyhow, how can you explain BLACK terrorist?. Chechens have a black hair, not a black skin.

Òû äîëáàê, ýòî áûë ðèòîðè÷åñêèé âîïðîñ, êàêîãî ÷¸ðòà Ïóòèí ãîâîðèò î âíóòðåííèõ ðàçáîðêàõ ñ àðàáñêèìè òåððîðèñòàìè?

Ïîøåë íà õóé. Õâàëè ñâîþ íîâóþ ðîäèíó.

Yes I do. And i do not need to set my waypoints to **** for that.

2All but Serb:
You know, when I lived in Kharkow (curently Ukraine) I considered myself as Russian, and my friends who are ethnic Ukrainians considered theirselves as Russians. And if you ask people there, Ukrainian people in Eastern Ukraine, what's Russian language they'll say it's Dostoevsky's language. But if you ask the same question in Western Ukraine you'll hear that Russian is Stalin's language.

Religion<>Ideology<>Nationality<>Culture

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
Western frontier of Russia is Finland, i guess

You guess, my ass. Look at map, Finalnd is not the only country who shares frontier with Russia from the west.
And after collapse of the USSR, western frontiers have been changed due to creation of new countries, thus old security system have been destroyed.
That's what he said. And it's a plain fact.

Òû äîëáàê, ýòî áûë ðèòîðè÷åñêèé âîïðîñ, êàêîãî ÷¸ðòà Ïóòèí ãîâîðèò î âíóòðåííèõ ðàçáîðêàõ ñ àðàáñêèìè òåððîðèñòàìè?

"Ìû æèâåì â óñëîâèÿõ îáîñòðèâøèõñÿ âíóòðåííèõ êîíôëèêòîâ è ìåæýòíè÷åñêèõ ïðîòèâîðå÷èé, êîòîðûå ðàíüøå æåñòêî ïîäàâëÿëèñü ãîñïîäñòâóþùåé èäåîëîãèåé"
Ýòî áûëà î÷åðåäíàÿ êîíñòàòàöèÿ ôàêòà, äîëáàê. Ïðè÷åì çäåñü àðàáñêèå òåððîðèñòû?

Yes I do. And i do not need to set my waypoints to **** for that.

Good for you, then leave my Motherland alone.