Attackers seize Russian school II(continued)

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Winston
I saw it Doc, I just don't believe it will last.

And lots of people in the "West" don't want to blame radical Islam in the first place, not even in a case as horrible as the tragedy we just witnessed. It's considered terribly racist you know.

How ironic that it's considered racist when most of the perpetrators are as literally caucasian as can be.

I hate that people conflate anything having to do with linguistic, moral or cultural differences with racism. All but race include at least some ability to choose, and by confusing the issues with spurious claims of racism it makes it seem as though people with other values / culture have no choices in what they value or how they behave. Which sounds a lot like racism.

Originally posted by Winston
And what's even worse, it might show how wrong and warped those same well-meaning, good people have been now for decades. Can't let that happen. That's why every expert academic in these parts is now blaming Putin, not the terrorists.

Nothing will change, not even after Beslan.

I hope you are wrong about that. Here the touchy-feely left is in recession due to 9/11 and scores of other incidents over the past 30 years or so leading up to it.

It's important that that portion of the left which is unrealistic become more relevent. They shouldn't become right wingers, but they need to get on the same page as everyone else in order to even contribute to the debate.

[Heresson]

Originally posted by Gangerolf
The face of terror

Yup, quite handsome.

Come on, Putin is 5 times the leader alcoholic Yeltsin was.

Yeltzin destroyed Soviet union, defended Russian democracy against communists, and managed to keep position of Russia in the world very high. Yes, He's chosen Putin as his successor, but it's just one mistake.
He was an alcoholic - but it's a disease. Bashing Him for that is not right.

[Winston]

Yeltsin was the best thing that could've happened to Russia at that time.

I have a lot of respect for him also, despite the various shortcomings of his. He is human, not the worst of traits for a political leader.

[Ted Striker]

Nope, while Yeltsin did lead the rebellion, and was successful, as an administrator he was marginal.

There is a big difference between those two roles.

[Winston]

I'm not talking of his qualities as an administrator but of his abilities as the political leader of a nation in turmoil. He battled it out with the reactionary Communist majority in the Duma and resisting forces on numerous levels in society for a long time after the rebellion. I give him props for having succesfully completed the political transition of the country at a critical time in history.

His economic and other domestic policies/achievements are more dubious and debatable, no argument there.

[Ted Striker]

In any case, Serb was right, the goal of the terrorists was to start a war in the Caucasus.

BESLAN, Russia (CNN) -- A suspect in the bloody school siege that left more than 330 people dead, nearly half of them children, said Monday the hostage-takers were ordered to seize the school to "start a war across the Caucasus."

Appearing on Russian state television, the unidentified man said the attack was ordered by Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov and Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev.

"They gathered us in the woods and 'The Colonel' said that we should take over a school in Beslan. That was our order," he said.

"When we asked why we were doing this, what our goal was, 'The Colonel' answered us, 'Because we need to start a war across the Caucasus."

He said the hostage-takers included Uzbeks, Arabs and Chechens.

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/06/russia.school/index.html

[Heresson]

I have one thing to say.
All my complains about past Russian behaviour, and probably the future too, and all my complaining about idiotisms our dear Serb sometimes say does not change the fact that it is a great, great tragedy and act of barbarism.
While I think Chechens have right to independance, I doubt that in modern times independance is worth such long fight and destruction, not to mention lifes of civils that had nothing to do with the case itself.
I hope the fights will end there, and what will be the result, it has less importance. After all, Russia doesn't want to destroy Chechenia. It wants to gain souvereignity over it. So I wish Russia good luck in solving the problem, wishing it will choose better methods to achieve that than in the past

[Dr Strangelove]

Do we really know if most Chechens want an independent Chechnya, and if they do, do they want a Chechnya ruled by fundamentalist extremists? If you follow the link to the CNN webpage there is a URL to a video of the Arab reaction. It appears while some are concerned over the wanton slaughter they take it as an article of faith that the attack was motivated by legitimate political greivances.

[Heresson]

Actually, I think that it was rather an fundamentalist attack than a Chechen one. I don't know whether majority wants to be independant - but if the things You hear about Russian behaviour there is true, than I think it is probable.
Still, I think that people in general are blind masses and if You delete some political activist, they are done at least for a while

[Serb]

Originally posted by Ted Striker
In any case, Serb was right, the goal of the terrorists was to start a war in the Caucasus.
quote:

BESLAN, Russia (CNN) -- A suspect in the bloody school siege that left more than 330 people dead, nearly half of them children, said Monday the hostage-takers were ordered to seize the school to "start a war across the Caucasus."

Appearing on Russian state television, the unidentified man said the attack was ordered by Chechen rebel leader Aslan Maskhadov and Chechen warlord Shamil Basayev.

"They gathered us in the woods and 'The Colonel' said that we should take over a school in Beslan. That was our order," he said.

"When we asked why we were doing this, what our goal was, 'The Colonel' answered us, 'Because we need to start a war across the Caucasus."

He said the hostage-takers included Uzbeks, Arabs and Chechens.



http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe...ool/index.html

I saw this f*cker yestarday on TV. He was like a scared to death whining piece of sh!t- "I swear to God I didn't want to be involved in this, they forced me to do this, I swear to God I didn't kill anyone, I swear to God I didn't kill children, when they run, I heard order- "shot them", but I shot over their head, I swear to God. I want to live, etc."
F*cking bastard.
He indeed said that it was Basaev and Maskhadov order to capture the school and that gang was indeed international- Arabs, Uzbecks, Chechens one Kazakh and even one LOCAL Ossetin f*cker who FINISHED this school.
Also he denies previous version about weapons stashed in school and says they brought all weapons and explosives in truck.
Former hostages recognized him. Spetsnaz captured him among the last ones and he was using kids as alive shild. I say- get all info that he knows, then throw him to parents of murdered children.
More shoking details now comes from former hostages, those f*ckers tortued their victims, forced kids to drink thier own piss, beaten them and threaten/and actually kill them for crying. One 74 year old teacher, who was ethnic Greek was shot when he was trying to calm down a crying child. He seat down near crying kid and started to speak with him, and bastards just shot him at his back. They also executed all males who look physically strong during first day, without any reason, just because of fear they could resist.

[Dr Strangelove]

I thought that the hostages had witnessed the terrorists pulling up floor boards and retreiving materials from underneath? I don't see why they would have lied about such a detail. Why would this guy lie about this one detail? Perhaps there is someone still at large he is protecting. OTOH could the terrorists have been pulling up boards in order to plant boobytraps?

When this is over the Russians can consult with the Germans about seeing what it would take for an unfortuante suicide to await this fellow in the future. Tragic thing that happened to the Bader-Meyerhoff gang. Tragic.

[Serb]

Originally posted by Heresson

1) it was not an independance

Then what the hell it was?
Moscow controlled nothing in Chechnya between 1996-1999.
NOTHING.
And how the hell they could if there were not a single Russian soldier or cop in Chechnya?
They were free to do anything they wanted, ANYTHING. And they actually did what they wanted - they established a Taliban type state which had nothing common with Russian Federation and its constitution.

2) it was a short time

We had more than enough of this nightmare during three years of their independence. You suggest we should let them to kill us, to steal our citizens and convert them into slaves and to invade us till the end of times, till they kill all of us and win?

3) it wasn't the state that made this excursion, and it condemned it anyway

Oh my, you are just BLIND Heresson, just BLIND. No matter what happens, no matter what happened, no matter of any facts you're just keep whining- no, no, no, they couldn't do that, they were good guys.
I saw a tape how Maskhadov (their so-called president) awarded Basaev and Hattab by watches for fight against unfaithfull. It was after explosions of appartment buildings in Moscow and other Russian cities that killed hundreds of sleeping civilians. Those bastards were lauthing, and he was lauthing when he gave them thier awards. It was when Chechnya was still de-facto independent.
Now, when the hell Maskhadov condemned terrorism or invasion in Dagestan?
WHEN? And how the hell he could do this, if he is a terrorist himself? He planned 2002 Moscow's theater tackover, he planned Beslan school takeover. Why anyone in his straight mind should trust to a single word of such person?
To your knowledge, in 1999 Basaev who was in charge of forces that invaded Dagestan was a defense minister of Maskhadov's government of Chechnya.
Now you say that Chechen government condemned the attack on Dagestan? You must be completly stupid or completely blind?
Maskhadov who send his defense minister to invade Dagestan, thus declared war to Russia, It is the act of war, Goddamnit. Do you understan this? They, they so-called government declared war on Russia by invading Russian Dagestan in 1999, NOT THE OTHER WAY AROUND.
I've never heard he denied his responsibility for invasion in Dagestan. What I heard is when his minions were defeated in Dagestan and were running with tails between their legs back to Chechnya, he declared mobilization and declared Jihad over Russia.
So stop you BS about them being victims.

4) There were no proofs that the attacks were caused by Chechenians

We had plenty of evidences that prove that explosions of appartment builds in Russian cities were planned by Basaev and Hattab, as well as evidencies that numerous terrorist acts against Russia between 1996-1999 have Chechen trace. But, we didn't return to Chechnya in the second war because of this, we returned becuase they declared war on Russia by vioalting truce signed in Hasaviurt in 1996 and peace threaty signed six months later in Moscow between Eltsin and Maskhadov, because THEY INVADED RUSSIAN REPUBLIC.

I may agree that, since Dudajew's death, Chechenia was too weak to control its territory, and the excursions You've mentioned are example of it. But with a proper help...

Look with the same success you can complain that Iraqis would be way better under Saddam, and his removal was a big mistake.
Dudaev was a sick ****, a nazist scum. Saddam pale in comparison with him.

Anyway, there was still a civil war in Afghanistan, and Talibs were openly fundamental regime, which constitutes a great difference between them and Chechenia.

What difference?
Chechnya between 1996-1999 WAS A FUNDAMETALIST REGIME. Absolutely the same regime as Taliban with the same corrupted extremist teachings instead of religion.
There were no differences between them and Taliban, not a single difference.

[Dis]

why is the life of a child worth more than that of an adult?

This is not another nonsensical comment by myself. I'm really curious why women and children are valued more by western society (and I consider Russia to be part of western society btw)

[Ted Striker]

Serb

[The Emperor Fabulous]

Diss