Attackers seize Russian school II(continued)

[Ned]

Would building a "Berlin Wall" around Chechnya help?

[lord of the mark]

Originally posted by muxec
OK, I'll tell you a story about religious fanatics.

My best friend when he was 15 years old met a 14-years-old girl from family of Jwish religious fanatics. She accidentially took a breath of freedom.
She loved music but her parents said that it's evil so she listened secretly. SHe desired to study sciences but her parents said it's evil. She desired to become an atheist but she feared that her parents will physically kill her for that. My friend met her several times and they also SMSed as well. My friend was shocked.

One day she stoped replying on SMSes of my friend... He never saw her again...

I have people close to me who've left UltraOrthodox Judaism. Plenty of screaming and yelling and hard feelings, but no one getting killed. And eventually some degree of reconciliation, with forebearance on both sides.

[lord of the mark]

Has anyone else seen the story of a Greek school teacher who was given the choice of leaving the school along with some other elderly, but who chose to stay with his students? Israeli press says he died throwing himself on a grenade, Greek press says he was dismantling a fan that was wired to a bomb. Legend or true? Other sources?

[:) Smiley]

Originally posted by Ned
Would building a "Berlin Wall" around Chechnya help?

Quite possibly. Walls do a good job of making it a lot harder for people to cross a certain line.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Smiley


Quite possibly. Walls do a good job of making it a lot harder for people to cross a certain line.

It wouldn't have kept those 10 arabs out. It wouldn't keep chechynans living in other parts of Russia out. It wouldn't protect kids in schools within the walls from terrorists inside the walls (and there are plenty of russian kids living in chechnya as well IIRC). I doubt a wall would make much difference at all apart from being very very expensive. chechyna is much much larger than west berlin was.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ned
Would building a "Berlin Wall" around Chechnya help?

What if the people of Chechnya really don't want Maskhadov and his minions? Wouldn't you be condemning the innocent? What we need to do is find out if the Chechens really want these guys back in power. If they don't we should begin negotiations to hand the province back to them, but also lay the foundations of a countercoup within Chechnya. We then give Maskhadov the keys to the palace, then the day after his boys move in we spring the trap. Once the whole gang is rounded up with give them to the people of Chechnya and Osetia who have suffered so much in their hands.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


What if the people of Chechnya really don't want Maskhadov and his minions? Wouldn't you be condemning the innocent? What we need to do is find out if the Chechens really want these guys back in power. If they don't we should begin negotiations to hand the province back to them, but also lay the foundations of a countercoup within Chechnya. We then give Maskhadov the keys to the palace, then the day after his boys move in we spring the trap. Once the whole gang is rounded up with give them to the people of Chechnya and Osetia who have suffered so much in their hands.

Sounds like Palestine, doesn't it. A few thugs stay in power thru a reign of terror and cannot be overthrown or democratically unelected. They then wage terroristic war against their neighbors, forcing reprisals that creates an endless cycle of violence that keeps them both in power and in the favor of liberals throughout the world who ignor the terror, the thuggery and blame everything on the victims of terrorism.

[Serb]

Originally posted by muxec
But they'll not pay it. And even if so Russia will take 299.9 mln roubles taxes from this.

I hope that somebody among them is greedy enough to betray his commander.

They will pay and it''s not some kind of lottery to tax30% of the prize.
From what I heard they recieved 2 million USD from abroad for attack on Beslan. And such bastards are greedy enough to betray their own mother, not only their boses.

[Serb]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Has anyone else seen the story of a Greek school teacher who was given the choice of leaving the school along with some other elderly, but who chose to stay with his students? Israeli press says he died throwing himself on a grenade, Greek press says he was dismantling a fan that was wired to a bomb. Legend or true? Other sources?

Many teachers, kids, parents and spetsnaz officers died as real heroes there. The death tall among spetsnaz now reached 12 KIA. It's the biggest casualty in a single operation among spetsnaz during its entire history. I saw the interview with wounded officer and he said that inside building they couldn't return fire or throw grenades, because those f*ckers were hiding among the kids, some made a real barricades of bodies of wounded children and shot from that "shelter", so in many cases the only choice spetsnaz had was to cover escaping children with their own bodies.

[Ted Striker]

Spetsnaz

[Ned]

Hiding behind kids! And to think Eurocoms support these folks.

[Serb]

Not only hidding, they executed kids inside the building, shot them and kill them with knifes. One f*cker shot 3 years old child on view of child's mother who was begging for mercy for her kid. She is a Muslim and she told him so, but he jsut said- "you don't believe in true Allah" and shot her child. She survived. Those beast show no mercy. Beslan is most Muslim town in whole North Ossetia. The f*cks who did it knew this. They aren't Muslims, they aren't humans, they worship to devil.

[Vince278]

Originally posted by Serb
and even one LOCAL Ossetin f*cker who FINISHED this school.

Former hostages recognized him. Spetsnaz captured him among the last ones and he was using kids as alive shild.

[Vince278]

From Yahoo News:

Questions Linger Over Russia School Seige

1 hour, 49 minutes ago

By BURT HERMAN, Associated Press Writer

BESLAN, Russia - Russian soldiers fled as shooting broke out in the spasm of violence that ended the school siege here, and unprepared special forces were forced to borrow bullets from armed locals who had rushed to the scene.

As Beslan buried more victims Friday, a week after the bloodbath at School No. 1, questions lingered over how authorities handled the three-day standoff that left at least 330 hostages dead.

"One of the most painful questions that that whole world is asking — why all the events surrounding the Beslan school No. 1 looked so out of control ... probably has an answer: Because nobody was in charge of the operation," the Russian daily Russkiy Kuryer said in an editorial Friday.

President Bush (news - web sites) has asked top advisers to study how authorities would deal with a similar assault on an American school.

Referring to the Beslan crisis, Homeland Security Secretary Tom Ridge told The Associated Press on Thursday that "preliminary reports suggest there wasn't the kind of coordination and leadership and direction and somebody being in charge."

Meanwhile, the mound of flowers and wreaths at the school continues to grow as mourners converge from around the Caucasus region of North Ossetia, home to Beslan. Some also leave food and water, among the deprivations the hostages suffered.

Not a single room was left untouched by the attack, which began Sept. 1 as children arrived with their parents for what was to have been a festive first day of class.

Shrapnel and blood spatters the hallways and hundreds of bullet holes riddle the walls both inside and out. But other signs of the battle are already disappearing. Children from the town have collected many of the rocket-launcher tubes left scattered around the school.

Officials aroused suspicion from the start by insisting the hostages numbered about 350, when in fact they were more than 1,200. Residents rushed to the scene, fearing authorities planned to storm the building and didn't want the public to know so many lives hung in the balance.

"From the start, (authorities) weren't doing things right," said Artur Belikov, 35, attending a wake for two relatives killed, Albina Budayeva, 38, and her 3-year-old daughter Valeria.

But Katya Tsikayeva, 69, also at a wake at Beslan's cemetery, argued that troops should have immediately stormed the building. 'Why did they wait a second day, a third day — to let so many die?" she asked.

A Beslan resident who gave only his first name, Robert, said he arrived soon after the siege started and stood guard throughout.

He would not say where he got his gun; private citizens aren't normally allowed to keep weapons in Russia. However, many people in the Caucasus, where myriad conflicts have erupted since the 1991 Soviet collapse, are believed to have arms at home.

The standoff ended Sept. 3, when an explosion inside the school sent children fleeing and their captors began shooting them in the back — prompting the forces gathered outside to return fire.

He said conscript soldiers fled as the fighting began. "They were worried about their own lives," said Robert, 31, who had several relatives inside.

Locals handed their clips of ammunition to elite troops who didn't have enough bullets, Robert said. "They weren't ready."

The arrival of some special forces was also delayed because they didn't have bulletproof vests, residents said.

By official accounts, 11 elite soldiers were killed in the siege, more than in any other single battle. Some media reports have said they were shot in the back by locals at the scene.

Gena, an Interior Ministry warrant officer from a nearby region who wasn't involved in the battle, said it appeared authorities had no plans for what to do when mayhem broke out. Visiting the school Friday, he said troops should have taken the children away from the school before returning fire.

"If they already had two days, they needed to think of something," said Gena, who had six relatives among the hostages and also gave only his first name.

Lamenting the corruption and lapses in duty that allowed the attackers to bring their arsenal to the school, residents are demanding a full explanation of the circumstances that made the attack possible as well as how it all ended.

Whether they will get it remains to be seen.

"No one really knows the truth of what happened, and it won't be known for a long time," Belikov said.

*Boldface above is mine.

Shocking reports just out of Russia. Regular army fleeing the scene? No coordinated leadership? Spetsnaz borrowing ammo from the locals? Largest single loss of Spetsnaz troops? It boggles the mind. I don't know what to say.

[Dr Strangelove]

There are confusing reports about what caused the gym roof to collapse. Some reports say it collapsed after the terrorists' bombs went off, some say it collapsed after soldiers blew a hole in the wall. Does anyone know the facts?