Attackers seize Russian school II(continued)

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Sprayber


http://www.cnn.com/WORLD/europe/9911/18/osce.summit.03/

That's nice

Different President

And not recent

[Ned]

Geronimo, I am trying to think on how we have not been there for Yeltsin and Putin. We have been quite supportive because we want democracy in Russia to succeed.

Please give me some example of US mistreatment of Russia.

[Geronimo]

Originally posted by Ned
Geronimo, I am trying to think on how we have not been there for Yeltsin and Putin. We have been quite supportive because we want democracy in Russia to succeed.

Please give me some example of US mistreatment of Russia.

We have snubbed russia in almost every diplomatic encounter but one example that is fresh in my memory is that because of prohibitions on transfers of governement money to russia NASA cannot offer one red cent to the Russian space agency to offset the extra burden Russia is having to shoulder due to the grounding of our shuttles. We would have no trouble making such cash transfers to any of our other ISS space partners but for russia we refuse. I also find fault in the fact that we have actively invited several countries into NATO but have not even tried to sell the idea of bringing Russia into NATO. I also remember the awful war against serbia in which we refused offers of a role for russian peacekeeping which would not be under nato command even though Russia had at least as much business interferring in the balkans as NATO did. After that travesty, I doubt we will ver be able to convince Russia to join NATO and we will have cheated ourselves out of an extremely valuable ally. I wish I had more specific examples for you but in general I would say it's undeniable that we do not treat Russia as an ally even though we probably see more eye to eye with them than with the vast majority of our NATO partners.

[Ned]

I don't know about the NASA funding problem, but we should be grateful for Russian help on the Spacestation.

As to NATO, I think the US and Russia ought to form a separate alliance given that France is part of NATO. We are in a mutual war against Islamic terror and we need an effective alliance.

In fact, I would like to see NATO dissolved and a new anti-French alliance formed with willing European states.

As to particular operations in particuluar states, one really needs a unified command structure. The operation in Kosovo was under NATO command, which really meant that Clinton called the shots. In Iraq, while the US has overall command, the Brits really are in control in the South and US units operating there are under British command.

I am sure if Russia and the US ever needed to conduct joint operations, we could figure something out that would be mutually satisfactory.

[Saras]

Originally posted by Geronimo


We have snubbed russia in almost every diplomatic encounter but one example that is fresh in my memory is that because of prohibitions on transfers of governement money to russia NASA cannot offer one red cent to the Russian space agency to offset the extra burden Russia is having to shoulder due to the grounding of our shuttles. We would have no trouble making such cash transfers to any of our other ISS space partners but for russia we refuse. I also find fault in the fact that we have actively invited several countries into NATO but have not even tried to sell the idea of bringing Russia into NATO. I also remember the awful war against serbia in which we refused offers of a role for russian peacekeeping which would not be under nato command even though Russia had at least as much business interferring in the balkans as NATO did. After that travesty, I doubt we will ver be able to convince Russia to join NATO and we will have cheated ourselves out of an extremely valuable ally. I wish I had more specific examples for you but in general I would say it's undeniable that we do not treat Russia as an ally even though we probably see more eye to eye with them than with the vast majority of our NATO partners.

true, true.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ted Striker

http://brneurosci.org/israel-terrorism.html

The reason there is an Israel is because the USA told the United Nations to make one.

IIRC in the late 1940s President Truman demanded that Britain liberate its colonies. He even threatened to cut food ais. Since Britain was still dependent on American food aid the British had no choice but to comply, and so they made plans to make India and Israel independent, and made preparations for the independence of the other colonies. Even without American pressure their was also considerable anti-colonial sentiment in the Labor party, which took power after Churchill was defeated. American pressure probably helped to quash objections from more conservative parties. Independence for Israel was delayed by negotiations over how to satisfy both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and also by the British efforts to prevent illegal immigration of Jews. One could argue that terrorism may have delayed the independence of ISrael, as the British government found it hard to be made to appear that they were knuckling under to terroroists.

[muxec]

Israeli ...khm...OK... terrorists
a. Fought for future peaceful and democratic state
b. Did not think that killing their enemies is more important than their own lives
c. Did not try to restart the war when ended



Serb :

[Winston]

Hmm, news stories here seem to have started figuring out the life-saving, common angle to reporting on all of this, which will probably soon be the accepted explanation among a large number of people, incapable of blaming Muslim fanatics for much more than... sorry, can't think of anything.

Putin is the villain. Simple as that. And very, very convenient for the preservation of a lot of people's world view.

I have this strange feeling that we'll see in the coming weeks this will turn out being presented as nearly the sole fault of Putin, his blatant incompetence and macho ways in general... The terrorists, the fanatic clerics, the indifference of millions of Muslims are minor points when compared to the fascist ways of that cold-hearted bastard Vladimir Putin. He's almost as bad as Bush, but not quite. Just wait and see.

Who actually remembers say, the Bali bombing and who were behind it, two years later. Nobody. Nothing will change. Except the death toll.

[Gangerolf]

The face of terror

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Winston
Hmm, news stories here seem to have started figuring out the life-saving, common angle to reporting on all of this, which will probably soon be the accepted explanation among a large number of people, incapable of blaming Muslim fanatics for much more than... sorry, can't think of anything.

Putin is the villain. Simple as that. And very, very convenient for the preservation of a lot of people's world view.

I have this strange feeling that we'll see in the coming weeks this will turn out being presented as nearly the sole fault of Putin, his blatant incompetence and macho ways in general... The terrorists, the fanatic clerics, the indifference of millions of Muslims are minor points when compared to the fascist ways of that cold-hearted bastard Vladimir Putin. He's almost as bad as Bush, but not quite. Just wait and see.

Who actually remembers say, the Bali bombing and who were behind it, two years later. Nobody. Nothing will change. Except the death toll.

Take a look at the thread on the reaction of the Muslim world. Some Muslims are now beginning to see the negative consequences of radical Islamist movements. It would be nice to believe that this incident might be the beginning of a modern world conciousness among Muslims.

[Winston]

I saw it Doc, I just don't believe it will last.

And lots of people in the "West" don't want to blame radical Islam in the first place, not even in a case as horrible as the tragedy we just witnessed. It's considered terribly racist you know.

And what's even worse, it might show how wrong and warped those same well-meaning, good people have been now for decades. Can't let that happen. That's why every expert academic in these parts is now blaming Putin, not the terrorists.

Nothing will change, not even after Beslan.

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Geronimo


We have snubbed russia in almost every diplomatic encounter but one example that is fresh in my memory is that because of prohibitions on transfers of governement money to russia NASA cannot offer one red cent to the Russian space agency to offset the extra burden Russia is having to shoulder due to the grounding of our shuttles. We would have no trouble making such cash transfers to any of our other ISS space partners but for russia we refuse. I also find fault in the fact that we have actively invited several countries into NATO but have not even tried to sell the idea of bringing Russia into NATO. I also remember the awful war against serbia in which we refused offers of a role for russian peacekeeping which would not be under nato command even though Russia had at least as much business interferring in the balkans as NATO did. After that travesty, I doubt we will ver be able to convince Russia to join NATO and we will have cheated ourselves out of an extremely valuable ally. I wish I had more specific examples for you but in general I would say it's undeniable that we do not treat Russia as an ally even though we probably see more eye to eye with them than with the vast majority of our NATO partners.

Well done Geronimo

[Ted Striker]

Originally posted by Dr Strangelove


IIRC in the late 1940s President Truman demanded that Britain liberate its colonies. He even threatened to cut food ais. Since Britain was still dependent on American food aid the British had no choice but to comply, and so they made plans to make India and Israel independent, and made preparations for the independence of the other colonies. Even without American pressure their was also considerable anti-colonial sentiment in the Labor party, which took power after Churchill was defeated. American pressure probably helped to quash objections from more conservative parties. Independence for Israel was delayed by negotiations over how to satisfy both the Israelis and the Palestinians, and also by the British efforts to prevent illegal immigration of Jews. One could argue that terrorism may have delayed the independence of ISrael, as the British government found it hard to be made to appear that they were knuckling under to terroroists.

[Sprayber]

Originally posted by Ted Striker


That's nice

Different President

And not recent

It's the same ole same ole Ted and it's not going to change. Should be careful about who we give black checks to. It often bites us in the ass later on.

[Ted Striker]

Come on, Putin is 5 times the leader alcoholic Yeltsin was.