Modern Chinese-Japanese Relations: Is there any hope?

[Last Conformist]

Pas-de-Calais.

[Q Classic]

The Germans call the Baltic die Ostsee "the East Sea" in German. In English, they call it "the Baltic Sea".

(The Swedish name of the Baltic, Östersjön, also means "East Sea". But as you see, when communicating in English, I use the English name. I don't feel I'm being particularly unfair in asking the Koreans to do the same.)

did the baltic countries ever occupy germany and sweden for a period of 40-some years and consistently try to stamp out the native culture, along with brutally using the population as cheap labor and as sexual playthings for the troops?

that's a small part of the reason why you'll find most koreans have a problem with calling it the sea of japan.

stupid and silly? yes. understandable? completely.

[Natalinasmpf]

Should we refer to the History channel?

[Last Conformist]

Originally posted by Q Cubed

The Germans call the Baltic die Ostsee "the East Sea" in German. In English, they call it "the Baltic Sea".

(The Swedish name of the Baltic, Östersjön, also means "East Sea". But as you see, when communicating in English, I use the English name. I don't feel I'm being particularly unfair in asking the Koreans to do the same.)

did the baltic countries ever occupy germany and sweden for a period of 40-some years and consistently try to stamp out the native culture, along with brutally using the population as cheap labor and as sexual playthings for the troops?

No. I can't recall they've done anything nasty to Sweden since the Estonians burnt Sigtuna a thousand years ago.

Rather, it was we who were occupying them for quite a while. Despite that, we're pretty popular there, on account of being less nasty than the Germans and Russians were.

that's a small part of the reason why you'll find most koreans have a problem with calling it the sea of japan.

stupid and silly? yes. understandable? completely.

Understanding something doesn't imply accepting it.

[Spiffor]

Originally posted by Snotty
What do the French call the English channel?

La manche

(the part of a shirt that covers the arm)

[mindseye]

Back on topic ...

Originally posted by Tingkai

Really? There are more than a billion Chinese, yet you know they all hate the Japanese?

Originally posted by urban Ranger

mindseye's experience would be interesting.

I'm sorry to say that my experience in Shanghai strongly parallel's DaShi's in Hangzhou, although not to the same degree. Hatred, or at least alleged hatred, of Japan is pretty commonplace, even among educated people.

I have lived here about 3.5 years and have now taught about 1,500 students from teens to senior corporate officers. About 1/3 of my students originate from other parts of the country. I would say that about 35% would attest to "hating Japan", another 35% ambivalent but suspicious, 15% openly admire it, the rest - no opinion. But this is in Shanghai. From what I've seen, the animosity is much stronger in the hinterlands, where less exposure to foreigners, lower education levels, and fewer sources of information provide fertile ground for prejudice.

An early classroom exchange clued me in to the situation:

Student: "I hate Japan!"
Me: "Why?"
Student: (pause) "I don't know."

I was reminded of that scary scene in 1984 where everyone is raging at the image of Emmanuel Goldstein during the daily Two Minute Hate, but where Winston Smith suspects that some are just going through the motions.

Of course, as others have already mentioned, the actions of the Japanese in China (especially during the notorious occupation of Nanjing) were cruel and brutal in the extreme, with much of the violence occurring on a very personal level (swords and penises). I have never been able to read Iris Chang's famous book on the topic (not available in Japan, btw) because the photos are so disturbing. Given this, it is not unexpected that some level of residual hate remains in the populace.

However, it's equally obvious to most (outside) observers that the Chinese gov't cynically manipulates the issue for all it's worth. Witness the actions of the state press after the recent "sex party" scandal in Zhuhai earlier this year. The state press widely promoted the absurd notion that the Japanese businessmen had deliberately organized their sex holiday around a particularly notorious date in Sino-Japanese history (no mention was made of the Chinese prostitutes, who presumably were also aware of the date's ominous significance). The press-fueled indignation seemed especially out of place given the otherwise casual Chinese attitude towards prostitution.


As DaShi noted, the relationship is more complex than the surface indicates. Many Chinese (usually young) love the trappings of Japanese pop culture (fashion, music, movies, toys, anime, manga, pc games, Hello Kitty, etc). Since the Chinese school system drums any form of creative thought out of all but the most determined, Chinese kids have to look somewhere for fashion and "hip-ness" indicators. Japan and South Korea fill the vacuum. There's even a pair of slang terms for Chinese who are Japanese- or Korean-wannabes (ha ri and ha hang).

Also, Japanese food is one of the only foreign cuisines that most Chinese would ever consider worth sampling (ironically, the other is ... American fast food )

Should the topic come up in class, I usually mention the friendly and funny Japanese I have known (I don't mention the guy I once dated ). I ask students questions like, what about the two times China tried to invade Japan, and why they hate people for the actions of their grandparents. My hope is that a few of the knee-jerks will come to regard the issue on somewhat more complex terms than "Japan = evil".


There are a relatively large number of Japanese in Shanghai. Of the half-dozen or so I have asked about it, they have said that they don't really experience any hatred directed at them personally, they have Chinese friends, and they feel basically comfortable in China. I had a Japanese executive in one of my English classes, he proved to be the most popular student (he was a real joker, and a genuinely nice man). The Chinese students loved him.

[DaShi]

Some very interesting points are being made. I'd still like to hear more about the Japanese side. How do the Japanese view the Chinese?



"The ball's in Japan's court. It's up to them to mend their ways."

This is one of the issues I tried to address. Yes, the Japanese have a lot to do on their end (Good point: "One thing the Japanese government can do is stop visiting the Yasukuni Shrine, which enshrines 14 Class A war criminals."). However, China only aggrandizes the situation by encouraging hate. The main point of my first post was that the hate had become cultural. If this continues, there is nothing that the Japanese can do to make amends. In fact, it gives them an excuse not to because China would appear to be the 'bloodthirsty barbarians.'

"Well at least Taiwan didn't have the Great Leap Forward."

Nor the Cultural Revolution, which was far more barbaric and cruel.

"The major roadblock is that the government, even the education refuses to admit that the Japan of WWII was a monstrosity, refused to admit its war crimes...
I mean, hey, its okay to admit it; it means you recognise your mistake and that you have changed, all the more to respect you.
But the Japanese government seems to think otherwise.
.
.
.
the current Japanese generation are actually snobbing some of the Chinese because of whats printed in the textbooks about the Chinese..."

China does the same thing. Should China expect Japan to do something that it won't?

"OK. But why keep the grudge going? That can't be good in a global economy, let alone a world of nuclear weapons."

Exactly, I think both countries would benefit from a peaceful Asia. If they want someone to hate, they can hate the Americans like everyone else.

"Chinese culture is very reactionary."

I disagree. Reactionary movements have been supressed throughout China's history. None of the ruling powers have encouraged much reactionary behavior because it could lead to revolution. Because of it huge population, the governments of China have tried to encourage a submissive and inured culture. Confuscianism promotes obedience. Buddhism emphasizes complacent acceptance. Chinese culture is more laidback than say European, which I would consider to be much more reactionary.

"Adoring Mao? Mao is properly revered as the driving force behind the founding of the PRC."

Mao was a figure-head and much of the 'history' surrounding him has been relegated to myth and legend. Yes, he did rally the people, but he was not the competent hero that he is made out to be in China. Mao did not bring prosperity to China; Deng Xiaoping paved the way for that on which the people followed and did the work for. Mao did not defeat the Japanese; he wasn't anywhere near them at the time. It was the Russians and Americans who did.

"By 'early stages of the revolution', are you referring to the Cultural Revolution?
There were very little civilian casualties comitted by the Communists in China in the Chinese Revolution / Civil War. Eight points of attention, three points of discipline: won the hearts and minds of the people."

The Communist Revolution and the Cultural Revolution are two separate and very different events.



mindseye. Thanks for your perspective. I will try to take your stance if the issue comes up again in my classes next year. My response has usually been to ignore it and try to move on to what ever else we've been doing, which just leaves me annoyed at the end of the day.

[Snowflake]

The first thing I want to say, is that I am a Chinese. 100% Chinese. I was born in China and grew up in China. I went to college in China.

I don't hate Japan. I don't admire it either. Some of my friends hate Japan. The only reason? Because what they did to Chinese in WWII. And I don't blame them. Do people in the Europe hate nazi? I believe many still do. The Germany government apologized and its people are having normal relationships with people in other country. What do you think people will feel if the Germany government actually worships the nazis annually instead of admiting that they are war criminals?

Some said what Mao did was worse. Yes China had experienced huge disaster because the mistakes that the leaderships made at the time. But just because someone had more miserable life later, does that justify all the beatings and rapings she had suffered and makes her ineligible for getting an apology?

I had to say that it might not be the right explanation that Chinese's hatrad toward Japanese is because of the government's manipulation. In fact some people are angry against the government, because the Chinese government has been rather soft on Japan, because it is largely dependent on Japan's economic aids (trades, capital investment, etc). The hatred runs much deeper than that.

It is almost definitely wrong if you assume the Chinese hates the Japanese for no reason. Of course the student who said "I don't know" when you asked "why" could be a dumb ass, but don't assume all Chinese are dumb asses who are simply covered by blind hatrad. It is also possible that he just didn't want to tell you, being you are a foreigner and having so little understanding toward the Chinese history and culture. He may simply determined that it would be impossible for him to make you understand so he chose not to say anything.

[DaShi]

You should learn more about the Cultural Revolution.

[Snowflake]

I know about it. I was there.

[DaShi]

Well good, then you can tell us your perspective on it.

[Snowflake]

We would be threadjacking.

[DaShi]

Very well. But please chime in, if it becomes relevant to the subject at hand.

[Snowflake]

Do you teach class in English or Chinese? I was still thinking the I don't know answer.

[DaShi]

English. I only speak Chinese in class to give my students the chance to laugh at how bad my Chinese is.