Modern Chinese-Japanese Relations: Is there any hope?

[mindseye]

Originally posted by Snowflake

Now that we talk about this, I think the common external enemy that Chinese government tries to portrait for its people is the US. And there are quite some anti-US sentiment in China too. Although that doesn't prevent people rushing to the US.

I think Chinese attitudes towards the US are much more complex than the typical thinking about Japan. The attitude is more of a mixture of good and bad, maybe closer to "like the people and the culture, dislike the government".

Just look at how often you see Chinese wearing clothing displaying American (and British) flags. I don’t see many Chinese wearing clothing with Japanese flags on them.

[Whoha]

But the clothing was probably made in China, so...

Seriously, the governments have a good arrangement with each other, and merely use rabble rousing hatred for their own purposes.

[Natalinasmpf]

Now that we talk about this, I think the common external enemy that Chinese government tries to portrait for its people is the US. And there are quite some anti-US sentiment in China too. Although that doesn't prevent people rushing to the US.

Not just for the Chinese people, the entire world. A justified enemy too, the way the US arrogantly flexes its military arm of Imperialism. Its not really a false portrayal, either.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by mindseye
[q] Originally posted by Snowflake
Just look at how often you see Chinese wearing clothing displaying American (and British) flags. I don’t see many Chinese wearing clothing with Japanese flags on them.

Very good point. The Japan hatred has deeper culture roots and the US hatred probably is more or less the hate of a homeless toward a millionaire.

[Natalinasmpf]

the hate of a homeless toward a millionaire.

I wouldn't say that...more of the hate of a customer service officer, and an extremely demanding and troublesome customer who makes scenes.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by MORON
We should hate the monglos for slaugther whole cities of Chinese, and the Manchus for enslaving the Han, the proper race of the middle kindom of earth. We should hate the British for the opium wars. We should hate the european powers, and united states, for interfering with Chinese civil wars. Death to vile imperialist imperial powers. (especially the greeks, who started westen civilization and is the cause of lots of ills of the earth)

You got some pretty strange trolls.

However, just to point out some parallels - yes, we did hate the Mongols (even though they didn't really slaughter as badly as the Manchus). We did hate the Manchus. We did hate the Brits, and the European powers.

BUT - think of the difference in scale and time.

There were 20 million casualties in the War of Resistance Against Japan. Even if only 50% were dead there were 10 million, and that's more deaths than the Holocaust.

The Manchus conducted massacres in a couple of cities when they invaded. However, for one thing, it was hundreds of years ago. Secondly, they actually felt remose and tried to compensate. Then, I don't think they murdered that many people.

Same thing with the Mongols and everybody else.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Im sure there are japanese who could make a case for the complexity of Manchu history, and Chinese undermining of their position in Manchuria.

That's nice. Lets match documentary evidence

Manchuia was where the Manchus came from, and the Manchus incorporated their own land with the rest of China when they established the Qing dynasty. When they were overthrown in 1911, the RoC became the legal successor of Qing.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
I presume the justification of Chinese hatred for Japan is not the legal questions concerning the start of the war, but the atrocities commited during it.

Well yes, mostly.

Originally posted by lord of the mark
Whatever the legal issues regarding Tibet, its hard to see that Tibetans arent entitled to an apology for treatment by China.

I don't think the Buddhists were/are mistreated in anyway, that Buddhism was/is not suppressed, and there were no ethnic cleansing and that sort of stuff.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
I think it is very unfortunate when Chinese assume that all foreigners "have so little understanding" of China's history and culture, even foreigners who have lived here for years, studied Chinese history, and speak Chinese.

Certainly, you have John King Fairbank and people like him. Though they are very much the exception.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by mindseye
There are always people who live on hate.[/q]Certainly true, but what struck DaShi and myself was the ubiquitousness and virility of the anti-Japanese hatred.

I think that's largely caused by the close proximity in time and the presence of first hand accounts. IOW, there are still lots of people who suffered at the hands of the IJA are still alive and very much want to seek reparation from the Japanese government.

The way that the successive Japanese government (mostly LDP'ers) have been acting has greatly aggravating an existing wound. Things like denials, whitewashing of their history during this period, etc. The ongoing Diaoyu Islands dispute certainly doesn't help.

[Natalinasmpf]

Manchuia was where the Manchus came from, and the Manchus incorporated their own land with the rest of China when they established the Qing dynasty.

I believe the Qin and Han might have subjugated a significant portion of it. Manchu culture didn't emerge, I think, till very late, and when they were hungry, they pounced into the Central Plains....

HAIL! THE ZHONGGUO!

[Snowflake]

Just talked to a friend about China's 1:3 lost to Japan at the Asia Cup. It was said that there were "10 thousand undercovered police" in the game and the fans were not allowed to sing or display banners. Looks like the Chinese government was really trying to minimize potential violence so there wouldn't be any criticism toward China hosting the 2008 Olympic games.

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Snowflake
It was said that there were "10 thousand undercovered police" in the game

Ah, that helps to explain why only 40 something thousand tickets were on sale when the full capacity was over 70 thousand.



A lot of football fans were disappointed when they couldn't buy tickets.

[/threadjack]

[Urban Ranger]

Originally posted by Natalinasmpf
I believe the Qin and Han might have subjugated a significant portion of it.

Yeah, probably. Various earlier dynasties would have occupied parts of Manchuria.

[Last Conformist]

There were 20 million casualties in the War of Resistance Against Japan. Even if only 50% were dead there were 10 million, and that's more deaths than the Holocaust.

Most estimates I've seen have been closer to 20 million dead.

[Jaguar]

Originally posted by Dissident
do Jews hate Germany? It is such a long time ago. Most of these "kids" probably don't even understand ww2. Judging by what you said about their papers, they don't seem to have a full grasp of the situation. They simply are this way because of peer pressure and/or the school are propogating this hatred.

perhaps if they had freedom of speech and press, and didn't have a communist goverment...

Jews don't hate Germany anymore. Germany has made a strong and clear message that it renounces its actions in World War II. A few do things like avoid buying German cars, but we've really buried the hatchet by now.

My mom is fairly unique in that she is a Jew who grew up in postwar East Asia. (Phillipines) So she has fair reason to dislike both. She's far more angry at Japan for its postwar actions.