Arrest me and throw away the key

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

If you wish to believe that homosexuality is not sinful, that is one thing, but then you would then be going against what Christians believe.

That's very arrogantly presumptuous of you, considering that there are Christian denominations where affirmative gays are welcomed in their church and religious community.

[Agathon]

What's an "affirmative gay"? Are these the gays that liberals invite to their churches to make up the gay quota?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Agathon
What's an "affirmative gay"? Are these the gays that liberals invite to their churches to make up the gay quota?

Affirmative gays are those who are basically out, and who have a healthy sense of who they are and have no wish to submit to any quackery schemes that claim to change one's sexual orientation.

[Agathon]

Not you then.

[MrFun]

Exactly -- because Ben has helped me see the error of my ways.


So it is high time that I submit to some quack's notion that I can change my sexual orientation, live an unhappy life, and deny part of who I am.

[Provost Harrison]

I think that gays should be able to see the truth of what Christianity is. MrFun...I am surprised you still have any time for this backward faith - I am surprised the indoctrination is so strong.

[MrFun]

It's not indoctrination -- it's usually not very tactful of you or anyone else, to patronize people who believe in God by saying they are indoctrination (aka, duped).

[Ben Kenobi]

How do you tell if a woman is lesbian by her nipples? Some sort of bar-coding?

Uh, they seemed to enjoy each other's company.

I shouldn't have to say more...

[Ben Kenobi]

They're funnier than he is, PH.

Sad but true.

They'd reject me for being too staid, so I can't say that I am associated with the 'God hates fags' bunch.

[Gibsie]

Well did the arousal happen on camera, or were they like that to begin with? This are important details!

[Ben Kenobi]

So it is high time that I submit to some quack's notion that I can change my sexual orientation, live an unhappy life, and deny part of who I am.

Sin is a part of all of us, so in accepting Christ, you deny a part of who you are in favour of something better.

No different for you, then for me.

live an unhappy life,

Chastity is an unhappy life? That's the other option if you don't want to marry...

[Ben Kenobi]

Well did the arousal happen on camera, or were they like that to begin with? This are important details!

Uh, the former.

[Ben Kenobi]

That's very arrogantly presumptuous of you, considering that there are Christian denominations where affirmative gays are welcomed in their church and religious community.

And they have sadly adopted the ways of the world, rather than those of Christ.

They may call themselves Christians, but they do not accept the authority of Christ, except when it coincides with their own beliefs, and the beliefs of those around them.

What authority do you base your own beliefs on Mr. Fun? Obviously not the bible, since you do not believe scripture to be authoritative in matters of faith. It's just a collection of allegories, of no consequence to moral instruction whatsoever.

[Ben Kenobi]

I already said defilement involves the thoughts of doing evil that precede doing acts of evil. And I believe that was Jesus equating adultery with thoughts of adultery, i.e., a violation of the marriage agreement.

That's the point I was looking for. A violation of the marriage agreement.

Would you agree with me that the only legitimate sexual expression in Christianity is through marriage? This brings us back to this point of defilement. Every thing outside of marriage would then defile the body.

And God gave us free will, therefore if we choose to sin against our bodies, we are exercising what God gave us. So how is homosexuality a sin against one's body?

The same way as any other form of sin, with respect to our free will.

It just means you can't force yourself on those who don't want your help.

So, the temple sellers were hardly asking for Christ's help. I still don't see him advocating a live and let live philosophy.

The young wealthy man who wouldn't give up his possessions, Jesus "lived and let live". He let him make up his own mind...

Fair enough. However, Christ challenged his beliefs about God in that one passage, and about his own desires. Remember the list of commandments he gave to the wealthy man, which did he omit? 'Thou shalt not covet.'

Then you have to see his response. The man walked away because he loved his money more than he trusted God. This is why Christ says at the end, that what is impossible through men is possible with God.

Jesus told his followers to walk the land preaching the message, but if people didn't want to hear them, they were to go on to the next town.

Matthew 10:13-5

If the home is deserving, let your peace rest on it; if it is not, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that home or town. I tell you the truth, it will be more bearable for Sodom and Gomorrah on the day of judgment than for that town.


Hardly a mellow approach.

Perhaps, we'd need those parameters first. So how does homosexuality violate those parameters?

Well, why are we of two genders? If we were meant to use our sexuality with others of the same sex, why does that approach bear no fruit?

Since you seem intent on using the "Bible says so" argument, it helps to see if that argument is even valid.

Granted, but it just makes it a little more difficult on some areas.

I'm not certain I can explain sins without some conception of God, and who he is.

Morally wrong is one thing, but sin has a few other presuppositions.

[Ben Kenobi]

Now, for the Christian teaching on marriage, or at least Christ's affirmation of marriage, is here:

Matt 19:4-6

"Haven't you read," he replied, "that at the beginning the Creator 'made them male and female,' and said, 'For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh'? So they are no longer two, but one. Therefore what God has joined together, let man not separate."