Arrest me and throw away the key

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Lazarus and the Gimp


We need to have a quiet chat about the female body some time. I think you're misinterpreting a few things.

It's theoretical physicality- Obi Gyn's sphere of supposed expertise.

Rather like his diatribes against homosexuality- reminds me of getting a blind man to describe the interior of St. Paul's Cathedral by touching the dome.

[Ben Kenobi]

We need to have a quiet chat about the female body some time. I think you're misinterpreting a few things.

Then please feel free via PM to make your point.

How am I misinterpreting things?

[Ben Kenobi]

It's theoretical physicality- Obi Gyn's sphere of supposed expertise.

What expertise do I claim?

Rather like his diatribes against homosexuality- reminds me of getting a blind man to describe the interior of St. Paul's Cathedral by touching the dome.

Correct. Which is why I ask someone more versed in these things to help me interpret what I have seen.

See, is it really that hard molly?

[Ben Kenobi]

I seem to recall reading that the Bible has more warnings and admonitions about menstruating women that it does about gays. Do the Bible crew follow all those warnings or just the ones considered fashionable at the time?

Cleanness and uncleanness only makes sense in the context of a sacrificial system which requires such things.

The sacrificial system no longer exists, so how can these admonitions make any sense?

It's a similar argument to the reason why we shouldn't stone those who are homosexuals.

[Ben Kenobi]

I personally know of someone who is in the clergy of a Catholic denomination that is separate from the Roman Catholic denomination.

A clergy?

Self-appointed?

[Ben Kenobi]

The Archbishop of Canterbury has actually voiced sympathy for the plight of gays worshippers.

Evidence of what he said?

I think I have heard this, but I think you are putting a spin on this to have it say what you want to say.

I suspect that the general feeling in the UK, Canada, and Australia is much less anti-gay than you'd think.

And I think you are much less understanding where I come from.

I have no problem with gay worshippers, only the ones who are openly so. You need to be careful how you interpret what people say on this issue.

If the church were to be closed to sinners, then none of us would be able to ever enter.

However, once someone has decided to enter the church, then the church should encourage him to leave his life of sin. To stop sinning, even if they persist.

The more conservative voices are coming from Africa where there is considerable influence via non-Anglican "evangelicals".

Ah, so the African Anglicans are less pure than their Episcopal brethren?

That's a formula for division right there. None better.

I'm not sure of what you're taliking about. PECUSA is still a part of the Anglican Communion.

Then they are a minority, in a much larger church, which is precisely what I said.

TYhere was a call by some of the African members to discipline PECUSA for investing Robertson, but it didn't get far. The Archbishop of Canterbury pretty much quashed it.

That's not what I've heard. I've heard them calling to kick all you folks out, and that their call was still on the board.

In PECUSA the people of the congregation control the parish.

In theory, they do, but in reality, they do not.

If the majority of parishoners thought the issue worth declaring seperation from PECUSA they can do just that. This is happening in only a few instances, so I think that you're not in touch with what Episcopals think.

What is easier? To fight things in your church or to leave the church altogether? I would say the latter and not the former. This is why the people are not the parish, as it is much more difficult for a parish to leave than an individual.

I'm pretty sure that he included arguing somewhere in there, at least in the KJV. I don't think you're going to find any church successful at excluding people who boast, gossip, and disobey their parents.

Right, but would you want a person who boasts of these things to serve as your reverend? Your deacons? That would go contrary to Timothy, and the requirements for a person of noble character.

It's not so much that the sinning happens, but that it is boasted of, and proclaimed as a moral action. If you say that homosexuality is sin, like any other, than you are forced to question why your church has decided to take the route they have.

[St Leo]

Isn't it interesting how Ben is upset about the free speech rights of homophobes being violated but doesn't really care about the free speech rights of the pedophiles?[0]

[0] Is this a valid argument? I forget.

[Dr Strangelove]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Evidence of what he said?

I think I have heard this, but I think you are putting a spin on this to have it say what you want to say.

It was last year. I doubt that either of us will be able to find it. He has definitely taken steps to oppose the movement to eject PECUSA in favor of a dissident group which is asking to replace it in the Anglican Communion based upon PECUSA's decision to allow the invetiture of the gay bishop in New Hampshire.

And I think you are much less understanding where I come from.

I have no problem with gay worshippers, only the ones who are openly so. You need to be careful how you interpret what people say on this issue.

If the church were to be closed to sinners, then none of us would be able to ever enter.

However, once someone has decided to enter the church, then the church should encourage him to leave his life of sin. To stop sinning, even if they persist.



Ah, so the African Anglicans are less pure than their Episcopal brethren?

Nope, just less tolerant.

That's a formula for division right there. None better.



Then they are a minority, in a much larger church, which is precisely what I said.

Where then is the action of the majority? It's not happening. You're not an Anglican Ben. You don't know what's actually going on, and I don't save the church newspapers that I receive every month, so I can't show you. There is no widespread grassroots movement of Anglican churches to purge the Communion of the Episcopalians. You're deluding yourself.

That's not what I've heard. I've heard them calling to kick all you folks out, and that their call was still on the board.

It's called tabling, a way of killing proposed legislature while allowing the party proposing to save face.

In theory, they do, but in reality, they do not.

No, in reality they do. Priests are selected by the lay committee and can be removed by them too. The bishop's primary role is to approve who may or may not accept a position in his diocese. Parishes can remove themselves from the Episcopal church. The fact that some of them have is proof. It is even possible for a diocese to declare its independence.
Where the heck do you get off lecturing me about the affairs of the Protestant Episcopal Church of the Uniited States of America? Not only are you not an Episcopalian, but you're not an American either! This is a church you do not belong to in a country which is not yours. I sit in this church weekly and listen to the parish's proceedings. I dare say you do not know one Episcopalian warder. When we send laymen off to the diocese meeting we get reports back. You do not. Given the close nature of the congregation it would be extremely difficult for secret proceedings to occur. You may imagine what you wish, but that's all it is, you're wishful thinking. Your prejudices about this matter of gays in other peoples churches are so vivid that you're deluding yourself into believing that the people of that other church must simply be carbon copies of yourself. It's not true.

What is easier? To fight things in your church or to leave the church altogether? I would say the latter and not the former. This is why the people are not the parish, as it is much more difficult for a parish to leave than an individual.

Yet I have not seen the masses stampedeing to exit the door. Only one family has left. We lost more people when the church began ordaining women.

Right, but would you want a person who boasts of these things to serve as your reverend? Your deacons? That would go contrary to Timothy, and the requirements for a person of noble character.

It's not so much that the sinning happens, but that it is boasted of, and proclaimed as a moral action. If you say that homosexuality is sin, like any other, than you are forced to question why your church has decided to take the route they have.

My understanding is that the bishop of New Hampshire doesn't boast about his proclivities. So? Some people proclaim that they have knowledge of another person's or people's affairs when evidently they do not. Would this not qualify as boasting?

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


See, is it really that hard molly?

Sorry, you can't entice me with smutty innuendo.



Your 'theoretical physicality'- your supposed sphere of expertise- is all your nonsense and recieved opinions about women's sexuality (erect nipples doesn't mean she was enjoying it, nitwit, nor that she's a real lesbian) marriage, homosexuality, your inane ramblings on the sex and sexuality of gay men, you name it.

Frankly I don't think I've read such ill-informed tripe on the subject of human sexuality in a long time- well, probably not since Kucinich's last post anyway.

Think long and hard Obi Gyn- what makes your nipples erect?


Other than thoughts of a theocratic state in Canada, or watching 'Song of Bernadette' for the twentieth time, that is.

Cold?

Pinching?


Sounding familiar?

[Boris Godunov]

My nipples got hard while I was reading Doc Strangelove's last post.

[Berzerker]

Regarding nipples on women in porn they are commonly "iced" to make them look perky

yuuummm.

Hell, a cool breeze is enough to make my nipples stand at attention.

Ben, are you going to support the following?

1) Where did Jesus condemn homosexuality as sinful?

2) What is your logical explanation as to why it is sinful?

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Regarding nipples on women in porn they are commonly "iced" to make them look perky

Men, too, in gay porn. Flabby nipples aren't a very titillating image.

Erm, pardon the pun...

[molly bloom]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov
My nipples got hard while I was reading Doc Strangelove's last post.

Desperation will do that.


I suspect Obi Gyn gets warm feelings for breviaries, St. Christopher medals and Foxe's Book of Martyrs:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/chr/martyrs/

[Berzerker]

Leave it to Boris to turn my vision of Heaven into a vision of hell.

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


If the church were to be closed to sinners, then none of us would be able to ever enter.

However, once someone has decided to enter the church, then the church should encourage him to leave his life of sin. To stop sinning, even if they persist.

I'm glad I believe in God's acceptance of who I am, who wishes for me to be honest with myself and other people in my life.