Arrest me and throw away the key

[Berzerker]

Then I need an answer from you what you would consider proof.

A logical explanation. I can offer one to show why murder is immoral, I can't offer one to show that homosexuality is immoral.

You have rejected my earlier statements on the grounds that they do not meet your earlier requirements without spelling out what you require.

I've explained what I'm looking for, logic, not "the Bible says so".

I can only try to prove things, I cannot determine for you what constitutes proper proof.

But you haven't tried to prove your assertion, you've quoted the Bible and I've pointed out how the Bible doesn't try to offer proof either...

[Ben Kenobi]

I can offer one to show why murder is immoral,

Under what grounds do you believe murder to be immoral?

But you haven't tried to prove your assertion, you've quoted the Bible and I've pointed out how the Bible doesn't try to offer proof either

Your question is not, "Is homosexuality wrong." but rather, "Is homosexuality sin?"

Sin implies many things. First of all, Scripture can act as proof to what Christianity defines as sinful.

If you wish to believe that homosexuality is not sinful, that is one thing, but then you would then be going against what Christians believe.

[Berzerker]

Ben -

I disagree with you.

Consider this. If you break something that is not your property, have you not trespassed against the owner of that property?

Yes, you have trespassed.

Ergo, if by my earlier argument that you are not your own, then all the sins you commit against your own body constitute a trespass against the true owner.

But Jesus defined defilement and that definition requires thoughts of wickedness about others, e.g., the thought of committing murder even if it isn't acted upon. Second, you're assuming we don't own ourselves and that assumption is based on what someone else may have said in the Bible, i.e., "the Bible says so". God gave us free will, you've said that yourself, so we do own ourselves - that's why we have free will.

And how is that the equivalent of live and let live? This is a command to do good to others because you would want good to be done to you.

That's live and let live, do to others what you don't want done to you would be a violation of live and let live.

Live and let live cannot promote people to be kind to each other, all it can do is promote indifference to the plight of others.

You're putting a spin on that, it doesn't mean indifference. It means allowing people to make their own decisions about how to live their lives.

Christianity has greater concern for people than a live and let live philosophy.

Yes, burned quite a few people to save their souls. But even Jesus was indifferent to some people, he wasn't running around healing everyone he could. He often ignored people in need...

[Berzerker]

Here is your argument, Ben

Homosexuality is a sin because:

Homosexuality = defilement
Defilement = sin
Homosexuality = sin

The problem with that argument is you're assuming homosexuality = defilement and that doesn't follow from how Jesus defined defilement. Furthermore, you aren't offering a logical explanation, you're still using the "Bible says so" argument...

[Ben Kenobi]

But Jesus defined defilement and that definition requires thoughts of wickedness about others, e.g., the thought of committing murder even if it isn't acted upon.

Ask yourself this.

Jesus says in his Sermon on the Mount, that it is sinful to lust after a woman, even if you did not touch her in any way.

How then, if one only sins through actions, can the lust be considered sin? There must be something else involved. Sin must be more than merely our actions.

God gave us free will, you've said that yourself, so we do own ourselves - that's why we have free will.

Our free will is not our body, the two are distinct from each other. We can still sin against our bodies, yet we also have free will.

It means allowing people to make their own decisions about how to live their lives.

Yeah, but sometimes people need help, and you can't get that from a philosophy that preaches nonintervention above all else.

But even Jesus was indifferent to some people, he wasn't running around healing everyone he could. He often ignored people in need...

Examples would be helpful.

you're assuming homosexuality = defilement and that doesn't follow from how Jesus defined defilement.

Very right, from what we have dealt with so far from the Sermon on the Mount. But you have left something out.

How did Jesus say we are to use our sexual desires? What would be the proper expression of them? Defilement then could be defined as anything outside of this picture.

you're still using the "Bible says so" argument...

And you're still using a "Jesus said so" argument. So why do you complain?

[Berzerker]

Under what grounds do you believe murder to be immoral?

Because it takes from the victim what belongs to the victim - their life. It's the most extreme form of theft...

Your question is not, "Is homosexuality wrong." but rather, "Is homosexuality sin?"

Sin implies many things. First of all, Scripture can act as proof to what Christianity defines as sinful.

If you wish to believe that homosexuality is not sinful, that is one thing, but then you would then be going against what Christians believe.

You aren't answering my question - why? Use logic, not "the Bible says so" or "that's what we believe". You can't even quote Jesus but claim Christians believe or should believe homosexuality is a sin. As for what I want to believe, I'm open-minded on the issue of how immorality is defined, but I need logic to sway me...

[Berzerker]

Ask yourself this.

Jesus says in his Sermon on the Mount, that it is sinful to lust after a woman, even if you did not touch her in any way.

How then, if one only sins through actions, can the lust be considered sin? There must be something else involved. Sin must be more than merely our actions.

I already said defilement involves the thoughts of doing evil that precede doing acts of evil. And I believe that was Jesus equating adultery with thoughts of adultery, i.e., a violation of the marriage agreement.

Our free will is not our body, the two are distinct from each other. We can still sin against our bodies, yet we also have free will.

And God gave us free will, therefore if we choose to sin against our bodies, we are exercising what God gave us. So how is homosexuality a sin against one's body?

Yeah, but sometimes people need help, and you can't get that from a philosophy that preaches nonintervention above all else.

Live and let live doesn't mean indifference nor does it mean refraining from helping others in need of help. It just means you can't force yourself on those who don't want your help.

Examples would be helpful.

The young wealthy man who wouldn't give up his possessions, Jesus "lived and let live". He let him make up his own mind... Jesus told his followers to walk the land preaching the message, but if people didn't want to hear them, they were to go on to the next town. When Jesus was walking around preaching his message, he wasn't healing people all the time even though there were undoubtedly plenty around who needed help.

Very right, from what we have dealt with so far from the Sermon on the Mount. But you have left something out.

How did Jesus say we are to use our sexual desires? What would be the proper expression of them? Defilement then could be defined as anything outside of this picture.

Perhaps, we'd need those parameters first. So how does homosexuality violate those parameters?

And you're still using a "Jesus said so" argument. So why do you complain?

Since you seem intent on using the "Bible says so" argument, it helps to see if that argument is even valid.

[Berzerker]

We can still sin against our bodies

Don't you mean God's bodies?

[Ben Kenobi]

Hungry...

Going to grab something to eat, and then come back.

[Bugs ****ing Bunny]

When you're back, could you explain this one?

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


Their nipples didn't seem to say that.

How do you tell if a woman is lesbian by her nipples? Some sort of bar-coding?

[Agathon]

http://www.godhatescanada.com/

[Provost Harrison]

I hate God types...

[Provost Harrison]

How do you reconcile being associated with filthy vermin like that BK?

[Agathon]

They're funnier than he is, PH.

[Provost Harrison]