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[Caligastia]

Getting away from the red card for a bit...

I thought Marshall's performance was pretty far below par. How many forward passes does he have to throw before they bring Kelleher on? IMO Marshall's passing is generally too slow and inaccurate. Did you guys see Dawson get a steal and turnover off him in the scrum late in the second half because Marshall was pissing about and wouldnt pass it? What a joke.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Andydog
I like the way Dallaglio tries to poo poo Henry's dream start as coach:

"I remember when he took over Wales they won their first 10 test matches. They swept all before them ... He knows things can change very quickly in a test environment."

Quite right, Lawrence. Things change indeed. Like the world champions losing four of their last five matches, and staring down the barrel of another loss in Brisbane on Saturday night.

The way we're playing? I wouldn't be so sure.

But I also like the way Larry allows that the All Blacks "played well in parts" during the series. Lucky they didn't play well in more than parts, Larry, or the scorelines would have been 100-3 and 100-12. Larry and Clive as a double act are a real worry. They have the same tendency towards petulance and churlishness. Perish the thought of a Lions outfit under their joint guidance.

In other matters, NSW rugby is yet again proving itself a unique commodity. Earlier this month, as I think I reported, the Waratahs were deperate to sign Andrew Johns from L***** as the solution to their problems at 5/8. Johns is said to be the best L***** player in the world, possibly one of the best ever. Immensely gifted, incredibly creative. Carlos has modelled his game - his kicking game, in particular - on Johns' methods. In their first attempt to sign Johns, NSW were thwarted by elements within the ARU, who thought Johns - at 30, never having played rugby, and with a recent history of serious injuries - wasn't a good investment in terms of the approximately $500,000 a season he would cost. The ARU declined to provide the top-up funds, and relations between NSW and the ARU reached an all-time low.

That, we thought, was the end of the matter. Not so. A group of well-heeled Sydney businessmen - anonymous apart from having been dubbed "Friends of the Waratahs" - put their heads and their wallets together with a view to bankrolling NSW rugby's purchase of Johns. Avoiding, in the process, the need for any ARU funds. Of course, NSW rugby denied any official knowledge, but everyone knew it was happening. Now, it appears, Johns is about to sign with the Waratahs for next season. It will be genuinely fascinating to see what sort of fist he makes of rugby.

It's also known that there was division within the ARU about Johns' worth, that the decision not to fund him wasn't unanimous. Eddie was known to be interested, but had real - and understandable concerns - about the player's age, fitness, familiarity with the game, et al. If Johns does sign with the Waratahs, it will be a win for those in the ARU who were interested in him. He will be available for the Wallabies, and won't have cost the ARU a cent. Whether he makes the transition successfully is an entirely different matter.

One interesting thing to come out of all of the above is the detail of the basic S12 contract. Apparently, a franchise can pay no more than a total of $160,000 a season - $110,000 as a base fee, $50,000 in match payments. Funds above and beyond those figures must come either from the ARU or, as in Johns' case, private sources. The Johns case has set a precedent.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
Getting away from the red card for a bit...

I thought Marshall's performance was pretty far below par. How many forward passes does he have to throw before they bring Kelleher on? IMO Marshall's passing is generally too slow and inaccurate. Did you guys see Dawson get a steal and turnover off him in the scrum late in the second half because Marshall was pissing about and wouldnt pass it? What a joke.

He didn't have the time or space he had the week before. The ABs' back row wasn't as dominant and he suffered.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by finbar

One interesting thing to come out of all of the above is the detail of the basic S12 contract. Apparently, a franchise can pay no more than a total of $160,000 a season - $110,000 as a base fee, $50,000 in match payments. Funds above and beyond those figures must come either from the ARU or, as in Johns' case, private sources. The Johns case has set a precedent.

Interesting, although I'm not so sure I like the implications of back-door money deals. How many ways are there to get around salary caps by keeping "private funds" officially out of a franchise?
I'd be willing to bet there are quite a few.

In any case I wish him well - Haven't seen him play as I don't watch RL but the name does wander into a headline or two on a semi-regular basis - enough at least to raise the profile of the game - if he can bring a bit of inspiration for a season or two so much the better.

Where is Havak anyway? Purging his memory with endless re-runs of England's RWC victory?

I'm guessing that, in the light of day with his hangover cured (well, as much as it is ever cured in the case of a chap who drinks as much as Havak reputedly drinks ) he might possibly be having second thoughts about his earlier outburst?
I might be wrong though - found this little gem in the planetrugby feedback.

"It has all become clear to me now. This series in New Zealand is all part of a great conspiracy by the colonials against the Grand Old Imperial Mother Country.

"In the first test in Dunedin, the referee wasn't stern enough with the All Blacks; in the second, he was harshly unjust to England: evidently a plot between the colonial Welsh and the colonial Kiwis.

"Sir Clive Woodward was utterly correct; if the gentle giant, Simon Shaw, the victim of a miscarriage of justice, had not been sent off, England would have won by at least 25 points. More, probably.

"That All Black Robinson is equally obviously a thug, daring to use his brute force against decent English lads; a character totally different from England's hero, Martin 'Johnno' Johnston, 'The Enforcer', who used his bulk and fists over the years to control unruly opponents in appropriate and acceptable ways.

"No, this was clearly a rigged game. The fact that the All Blacks managed to score a try when the teams were level at 14 players each doesn't change that incontrovertible fact.

"They deliberately left out Doug Howlett and Richie McCaw, two of their best players, to create confusion among the decent chaps from the Mother Country. And then they bring in this Fijian to score most of their tries.

"I ask you - when will these fellows learn the lessons of fair play, decency and rectitude and learn to take their victories in the same spirit that the England manager takes his defeats?"

Havak under a pseudonym?

[finbar]

Originally posted by ravagon
Interesting, although I'm not so sure I like the implications of back-door money deals. How many ways are there to get around salary caps by keeping "private funds" officially out of a franchise?
I'd be willing to bet there are quite a few.

Yes, it's what Havak and I were chattering about a week or so ago. It gets called various things - personal sponsorship, expenses for attending sponsorship events, that sort of thing. Mostly they're undeclared in the scheme of things. At least in the Johns case it will recorded in the same way the ARU's top-up funding of other players is recorded.

In any case I wish him well - Haven't seen him play as I don't watch RL but the name does wander into a headline or two on a semi-regular basis - enough at least to raise the profile of the game - if he can bring a bit of inspiration for a season or two so much the better.

I don't watch L***** either, but I've made a point in the past of checking him out. As I said, Carlos has very much based his game on Johns. There's absolutey no doubt Johns is wonderfully talented, and also intelligent. Given time, I have no doubt he would adapt to rugby. The question is whether, at 30, and unfortunately injury prone, he might have left it a couple of years too late. Regardless, it will be fascinating to watch him.

I'm guessing that, in the light of day with his hangover cured (well, as much as it is ever cured in the case of a chap who drinks as much as Havak reputedly drinks ) he might possibly be having second thoughts about his earlier outburst?

It was nothing compared to some of the stuff I've been reading on some of the rugby forums. OTOH, it's been interesting to read some Englishmen who take quite a different view of what happened.

Havak under a pseudonym?

Thank God for a sense of humour.

[Havak]

Lets all bash England and put on the rose spectacles for the black shirts. Haven't we been here before?

Let me know when you have finished having your fun and I'll pop back to discuss something with viewpoints we are a little closer together on.

No that parody was not me - it's Aussie in origin or I am a dutch man.

The Maori victory - now that was classy. They were down and out at half time but stuck in and kept running - Mallinder sitting on a huge lead made positional changes and suddenly the runners were breaking tackles here and there - and they sneaked it in the 2nd part of extra time. Worthy victory even if I didn't enjoy the result.

And Sir Clive (you know, your number one hate figure) has called up the props already - but no second rows yet.

So the Churchill cup is part of a bi-fold agreement with the IRB to help devloping nations - England attend it every year. The second part of the agreement is that NZ and Australia would do the same for the pacific/Islands. Now what do you do for them annually - other than take their best players away of course?

*edit* I defintely never want to recieve an open handed slap from Caligastia or a shove from Finbar if both are convinced they should be led in with the knuckles!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak
Lets all bash England and put on the rose spectacles for the black shirts. Haven't we been here before?

Let me know when you have finished having your fun and I'll pop back to discuss something with viewpoints we are a little closer together on.

No that parody was not me - it's Aussie in origin or I am a dutch man.

You are aware that a black shirt seen through rose-coloured spectacles is still a black shirt are you not? Unlike a white one?

Fun over but it was very tempting to put a dutch greeting in there somewhere ...

The Maori victory - now that was classy. They were down and out at half time but stuck in and kept running - Mallinder sitting on a huge lead made positional changes and suddenly the runners were breaking tackles here and there - and they sneaked it in the 2nd part of extra time. Worthy victory even if I didn't enjoy the result.

NZ Maori are, generally speaking, a pretty class act. Underestimate them at your peril. They may not always perform to the baby-All-Black nickname but then again sometimes they exceed it.

So the Churchill cup is part of a bi-fold agreement with the IRB to help devloping nations - England attend it every year. The second part of the agreement is that NZ and Australia would do the same for the pacific/Islands. Now what do you do for them annually - other than take their best players away of course?

Do you mean other than by actually playing against them?

http://www.planetrugby.com/News/story_36840.shtml

It doesn't sound like a half-bad match either. Significantly behind at the half and a big comeback in the second.

[Havak]

By the way Tamerlin - sorry about Toulouse. Wouldn't want you to think I missed it amongst the whole bashing of England thing.

Some of the one sided nonsense posted above about England beggars belief - for once I really do regret I am the only Englishman here. There's a real fear with all the guys following the same flawed arguments above that they might start to think they are right.

It would be nice to think Dallaglio is correct and that the Lions will be tougher to handle - but the reality is the ABs will just punch a few until an Australian touch official sends a few Lions off. And not one AB fan will see anything other than an 'open hand' from their lads of course.

[Havak]

The Black shirt turns a kind of distasteful purple through those spectacles – like someone blushing with embarassment perhaps? Apt for the current ABs?? Of course the white shirt is designed to be viewed with Roses so no problem there.

Yes Maoris are a good side – and deserved the victory. Vyvan’s boys are at fault as the game really should have been closed out just after half time.

I did in fact actually mean you playing minnows yes – as opposed to playing this gestalt construct side which seems to be there purely as a shop window to allow you to cherry pick their best players as ABs/Aussies/Boks * delete as applicable.

The article you linked is even about the NZ Union trying to pinch another player (and persisting even after the IRB told them to sling their hook).

Oh and here is one for the happy Kiwis – Graham Henry commenced his Wales tenure with a record string of victories for the province – and ended it with another record of a different sort. Whilst I don’t exactly wish that on you do not expect tears from me if history repeats itself.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
*edit* I defintely never want to recieve an open handed slap from Caligastia or a shove from Finbar if both are convinced they should be led in with the knuckles!

What an imagination you have.

Some of the one sided nonsense posted above about England beggars belief - for once I really do regret I am the only Englishman here. There's a real fear with all the guys following the same flawed arguments above that they might start to think they are right

Why don't you point out what I said that you think is incorrect?

It would be nice to think Dallaglio is correct and that the Lions will be tougher to handle - but the reality is the ABs will just punch a few until an Australian touch official sends a few Lions off. And not one AB fan will see anything other than an 'open hand' from their lads of course.

Do you have the game on tape or are you relying on your memory? After your initial post I looked very carefully at the incidents you described, and can only come to the conclusion that you are talking bollocks.

[Havak]

You find my criticisms of New Zealand unfounded? Am I supposed to be surpised?

I could cite several inaccuracies on your part actually – your allegation Shaw has a discipline problem because a ref talked to him a few times in the first test in NZ? Shaw has an excellent record in both club and test rugby as it happens. Grewcock is the one with a short fuse – and NZ seemingly brings the worst out in him.

Or indeed your allegation that the card was deserved on balance because England tackled men without the ball (and most of this very infrequent occurrence was after the red card would you agree – from a team under the cosh?). Had to laugh at that after the first test and the ABs getting away with that scot free all game.

Robinson – he of supreme innocence – is going to see red sooner or later. He is a consumate cheat with an attitude problem. The NH tour may find him out on that. The next Kiwi Troy Flavell in making.

Oh yes by the way Shaw, Jonno, and Deacon do not wear head gear - Kay, Grewcock, Borthwick and Brown do. Hope that helps you guys tell them apart now.

And I’m done with that game now. I may be daft but you can only headbutt a brick wall so long. Losing to the ABs is one thing – losing to Eddie is quite another. Praying for a miracle here

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by Havak
You find my criticisms of New Zealand unfounded? Am I supposed to be surpised?

Look at the facts (review the tape if you can), your allegations of punching from Robinson and Spencer were totally false.

I could cite several inaccuracies on your part actually – your allegation Shaw has a discipline problem because a ref talked to him a few times in the first test in NZ? Shaw has an excellent record in both club and test rugby as it happens.

Fair enough, we'll see what happens this weekend.

Or indeed your allegation that the card was deserved on balance because England tackled men without the ball (and most of this very infrequent occurrence was after the red card would you agree – from a team under the cosh?).

Rubbish. Being "under the cosh" is no excuse for ignoring the rules. And it was far from infrequent. I saw it happen at least 3 times in the space of 10 minutes.

Had to laugh at that after the first test and the ABs getting away with that scot free all game.

Funny how you would make that allegation now when you mentioned nothing of the sort in the discussions that ensued right after the game. If they were getting away with that "scot free all game" I would have expected you to bring it up at least once. Sounds to me like you're making stuff up again.

Robinson – he of supreme innocence – is going to see red sooner or later. He is a consumate cheat with an attitude problem. The NH tour may find him out on that. The next Kiwi Troy Flavell in making.

Yes, he was on the wrong side of the ruck, but that hardly puts him in the league of Flavell. Unless you're still trying to convince me he threw a punch at Worseley.

And I’m done with that game now. I may be daft but you can only headbutt a brick wall so long. Losing to the ABs is one thing – losing to Eddie is quite another. Praying for a miracle here

It will certainly be interesting to see which team can pull itself out of the doldrums. Which is worse - coming off two heavy losses to a world class side or coming off two poor performances against a team that should have been trounced?

[Caligastia]

[Caligastia]

In other news...

FIELD TO BE SHORTENED FOR ENGLAND

22nd June 2004
Brisbane

Australian Rugby Union officials have agreed to a request from England coach Sir Clive Woodward to shorten the length of Suncorp Stadium for Saturday’s rugby test match against the Wallabies.

The field will be shortened only on the Australian side of each half so that ‘England have a better chance of scoring a try’.

ARU chief executive Gary Flowers said in the interests of giving the tourists something to take home in the final of their three match tour of New Zealand & Australia, such as the memory of a ‘solitary try’, that the tryline would be brought forward to the 22 metre line.

“Look, we are doing this in the hope of creating the spectacle of a real game of rugby. We’ve listened to what England have had to say and we’ve responded to it. So today I’ve advised match officials of our decision to shift the tryline.

“If an England player finds himself in the unusual situation of having the ball in hand across the Australian 22 metre line then a try shall be awarded. Hey, he doesn’t even have to press the ball down, we’ll just give him the points. In addition, no conversion will be necessary, they will be automatically awarded the two points for conversion.

“As an added bonus, if the England player with ball in hand is say a couple of metres short of the 22 metre line then we might even consider awarding a try… if they appear to have given it their all or, they’ve run out of ideas. However I must stress this is entirely up to the referee’s discretion. Now you can’t get much fairer than that in my book.”.

Flowers also suggested that if an England player accidently threw the ball over the sideline and it was caught by a spectator wearing a white & red jersey and with a forlorn look on their face then the ball could be thrown back into the field of play to that player with no questions asked.

Sir Clive was understandably delighted with the ARU’s offers which he said would now give his players ‘a real sense of worth’.

“It’s been a long time since we’ve crossed the tryline, we sometimes take turns crossing the tryline on practice nights but that isn’t nearly as much fun.

“In return I’ve asked the players to lay off the thuggery, all cheap shots are to be kept to a minimum and should be concealed to the bottoms of rucks, knees to the backs of heads should be done with the weaker leg and stomping on heads carried out only by players with numbers on their backs above 5. That excludes number 5 by the way.”

[finbar]

Turn it up, chaps, I'm absent for one night and everyone's getting narky with each other. I'm just glad that my conscience is clear, that I contributed absolutely nothing to the situation that provoked the narkiness.

Now listen, Havak. I've been giving thought to your plight as the sole Englishman in these threads. It can really be a bastard for you. In fact, I was prompted to give consideration to your plight after I happened to turn on Wimbledon last night. Super Tim had just lost the first set to some swarthy character who had never set foot on a grass court until 10 days ago, and whose match against Super Tim was his first ever competitive game on grass. Of course I immediately turned the television off again. I couldn't bear to watch poor Super Tim struggle under the expectations of however many Britons there are. (I'm assuming the Celts and others claim Super Tim as their own in the absence of anyone called Iestyn or Paddy or Hamish who would recognise a tennis racquet let alone know which end to hold and whose idea of new balls would be as an alternative to a change of underpants )

Which brings to me to my point. Expectation. Englishmen have expectations. Their rugby team can play, as can their s***** team, apparently. Their cricket team is on the improve, and even their curling team shines - when the sun doesn't shine - during the Winter Olympics.

Englishmen aren't alone. Australians also have expectations. Their rugby team bludges along until it really counts, when they produce efforts that demand the question - why didn't you bastards play like this before!? We don't have a s***** team - well, we do, but the best of them earn more than our country's GDP in a week playing elsewhere and mostly think of their wallets before they think of playing for their country. Our cricket team, obviously, for a bunch of fairly loathsome individuals, can play a bit. Curling is unknown here, except in hairdressing salons. (See Tamerlin? You knew if you kept reading you'd find a reference to grenouille rugby) But we have swimmers who raise our expectations - the main one being the hope that our best swimmer will eventually give up the pretence and admit that he's gay. We also have cyclists who raise our expectations - the main one being the hope they don't puncture their tyres in the process of injecting themselves with equine growth hormones.

Which brings me to my real point. Expectation brings hope, which, in turn, invites disappointment. You and I live with the potential for disappointment every time one of our sportsmen or sporting teams enters the fray. Why do we do this to ourselves?

The solution?

Move to Italy.

Their rugby team is crap. No expectation, no disappointment. Their s***** team, as they've just proved in the Euro-whatever-it-is-thing, is crap. Ditto expectation and disappointment. They don't even play cricket. Curling, as in Australia, is confined to hairdressing salons. (I hope you kept reading Tamerlin!) They don't swim, they don't cycle - in fact, they do nothing that could be even remotely definied as capable of raising expectation, and, hence, inviting disappointment.

They just have stunning food, wonderful wine, terrifically idiosyncratic people, damn fine beer, and even, relatively and remarkably speaking, a Prime Minister who's to the left of both your President and our Prime A*sehole.

So there's the solution to your plight of being the sole Englishman in these threads. Join me in Italy as the only two Italians in these threads. No expectations, ergo, no disappointments, just a blissful life.

Mmmmm. I wonder if Super Tim knew what he started in my tiny brain when - having already declared in the media that he would win Wimbledon this year - he lost the first set to the swarthy grass-court novice.