Rugby - Truck and Trailer!

[Tamerlin]

They have played like sh*t* for the whole season until the last games of the championship and were very lucky as they qualified themselves for the play-off thanks to Club A winning against Club B and Club C loosing against Club D by more than three tries, blah, blah, blah...

[LDiCesare]

I didn't see the whole match (just the beginning and the last 20 minutes). It's sad the USAP seems to have played correctly in these 20 minutes, and scoed tries thanks to Corletto being sent off, but their lineout was very poor and their passes not accurate at all... But then I can't say I mourn too much, I probably dislike the USAP more than I dislike the Stade Francais.

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Originally posted by Tamerlin
They have played like sh*t* for the whole season until the last games of the championship and were very lucky as they qualified themselves for the play-off thanks to Club A winning against Club B and Club C loosing against Club D by more than three tries, blah, blah, blah...

So change the system!

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Originally posted by LDiCesare
I didn't see the whole match (just the beginning and the last 20 minutes). It's sad the USAP seems to have played correctly in these 20 minutes, and scoed tries thanks to Corletto being sent off, but their lineout was very poor and their passes not accurate at all... But then I can't say I mourn too much, I probably dislike the USAP more than I dislike the Stade Francais.

So who do you like?

[Havak]

He is a secret Tigers fan!

[Havak]

If there's any truth in that story about the club players grizzling about Clive to their coach while in New Zealand - and I'm sure there was something in it - who might the players have been?

I’m hardly neutral but I would make the Wasps boys favourites – with the bath lads second in line. Wasps is a clique and the boys do have ego problems after recent success. League champions two years running without ever once topping the league table at any stage of a season!

Cheap shot.

Well yes. Sorry. But his being bumped has brought him here twice to plague us. He is worthy of a cheap shot.

If you switch on at 10.30, discover the Wallabies are already leading 28-0, that Shaw has already been red carded again, you might be less than pleased to have missed the fun.

I wish I had overslept!

Thankfully it seems to be a Tiger-free zone.

There are a few – they only turn up after wins. The biggest Dills are the Bath fans of course – typecasting holds true.

Yes who are you supporting next season? Wasps are favourites to steal another title.

A bit of a habit with your England hookers!

Come back to me when you have one who can throw?

That young Bok side was hugely impressive against Wales – they will make a better showing than last year that’s for sure. They will trouble NZ and Aus in the games in RSA at least. What a difference 12 months makes! That other winger might have been Brent Russell? He played Saturday. Very fast.

The backline would still have been activated and England's dodgy defence would still have been exposed.

Fair enough – but surely they should have tried plan B when A went so badly wrong?

My prayers for Wendell to tweak his hammy in the warm up were answered!

Sadly so!

The scrums were embarrassing, but I'm used to that. In fact, give us a decent front row, and we could be quite a reasonable team.

That alone is going to make the tri-nations interesting!

Who would you eject? Who would you insert?

Strangely I discussed this at length over the weekend with various people. Out of the squad? Waters, Worseley, Woodman, Borthwick (Grewcock if not already banned), Hodgson, Lewsey (shadow of his RWC self). Jones would never wear white again for me.

Positional change – Hill back to blindside.

In? Jonno at coach. Brown and Deacon at second row. Titterall at hooker. Flatman at prop. Neil Back out of retirement so he can bring Lipman up to standard quickly. I’d also like to have guys like Forester, Moody, Vickery and Smith fit and available – all would make the 22, Smith linking up with Tindall in the starting line up. I would hope the injury lay offs have refreshed them all (Vickery has looked jaded for years now) Robinson on the wing. Matt Perry at fullback (a good old fashioned defensive fullback is Matt – something we miss badly). I’d send Thommo and Cohen to fat camp to try and get them fit again. Fly Half – I’d go for either the U21 or U19 England lads – that’s Broadfoot and Russell I think. Look to youth.

Apart from that I wouldn’t change much.

If you look at the baby Boks the average age is under 25 – same for Wales now. Alongside them the Wallabies and England both look geriatric!!

After all, SH teams tour the NH at the end of their seasons. He still start with a clean sheet. See what happens.

A point well made – and also made by Stuart Barnes of Sky. If he loses to Australia and the Boks in the autumn then change becomes inevitable IMO.

Running around, red-faced, berating the ref isn't captaining a team.

yes he has drawn a lot of flak in my discussions this weekend. We Tigers fans are spoilt – we have a skipper who reads the riot act to his players when it is needed – and who doesn’t indulge in revisionist reviews of games. Both Dally and Clive gob smacked me with their comments (the real England didn’t show up in the last 30 mins? Huh?)

Played in pretty good spirit tonight, I thought.

Well we are the best of enemies after all. Plus we were under the microscope.

He might even be the first England coach never to have coached at club level.

It’s possible – the question is does he want it? I think he might fancy coaching in NZ for a while first. He loves the country almost as much as his own.

[ravagon]

Bah humbug.
Thoroughly rotten weekend all up.
Missed most of the game too as they televised it live (or so near to it that it didn't matter) so all I saw was from about 10min into the second half and onwards (ie: the rugby played from about t2+10 to t2+20 plus whatever you call the stuff in the last 20 ).

Still, at least the NZ under 21's looked good (apparently).

Originally posted by Havak
I think he might fancy coaching in NZ for a while first. He loves the country almost as much as his own.

To borrow a Havakism for a moment ...

"Well, quite."

[Havak]

Naturally I don't want him to.

The last thing we need is a Kiwi S12 franchise churning out Jonno coached forwards for the ABs.

Clive has gone nuts - he is talking of England being back to their best for the autumn. Reality check Clive - changes needed first!

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Originally posted by Havak
He is a secret Tigers fan!

Come on, LDiCesares, refute that!

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Originally posted by Havak


I’m hardly neutral but I would make the Wasps boys favourites – with the bath lads second in line. Wasps is a clique and the boys do have ego problems after recent success. League champions two years running without ever once topping the league table at any stage of a season!

Wasps? Surely not the Nose? Who are the other Wasps players?

Yes who are you supporting next season? Wasps are favourites to steal another title.

No thanks. Mmmm. I'll have to suss out which Australians are where.

Come back to me when you have one who can throw?

Pots and kettles, or hospitals and charities as one of our favourite grenouilles is apt to type.

That young Bok side was hugely impressive against Wales – they will make a better showing than last year that’s for sure. They will trouble NZ and Aus in the games in RSA at least. What a difference 12 months makes! That other winger might have been Brent Russell? He played Saturday. Very fast.

I only saw the opening 15 minutes. Wales seemed to be struggling to contain them. Did you see the flanker? Burger? He can play. No, there's another winger, apart from Rusell. Tall, lean, coloured chap. Very quick. I'll hunt down his name.

Fair enough – but surely they should have tried plan B when A went so badly wrong?

Yep. But did they have any reliable field kickers?

Apart from that I wouldn’t change much.

I think you're right. Not that I know all the replacements, but rebuilding means rebuilding. To be honest, I think you'd peaked before the World Cup, and J**** and several others got you home.

If you look at the baby Boks the average age is under 25 – same for Wales now. Alongside them the Wallabies and England both look geriatric!!

Yes, that's why I'm urging the Rathbones and Gerards into the team. But I'm weeping that Joe Roff is retiring at 29, at the peak of his powers. They're talking about trying to persuade him to stay, but I don't like their chances. He's his own man.

If he loses to Australia and the Boks in the autumn then change becomes inevitable IMO.

Surely enough for you to barrack for the Wallabies!

Both Dally and Clive gob smacked me with their comments (the real England didn’t show up in the last 30 mins? Huh?)

Just as the Nose could only say that the All Blacks "played well in patches" against England. And your full back thought "the scoreboard flattered the Wallabies". There's a lot of delusion around the place.

It’s possible – the question is does he want it? I think he might fancy coaching in NZ for a while first. He loves the country almost as much as his own.

He obviously doesn't have a palate. I've never known so much wonderful produce murdered in restaurant kitchens as in New Zealand.

EDIT. Oh, and we have to front up against the Pacific Islands mob this weekend. They've absolutely smashed Reds and Waratahs 2nd XVs over the last two weeks. Quite frankly, I wouldn't want to stand in their way to the try line.

[Havak]

Wasps players: Lewsey, Voyce (although he is returning to Bath next season), Payne, Shaw, Worsley, Dallaglio, Waters.

As to who might be a barrack room lawyer take your pick.

Bath players: Catt (off to London Irish), Tindall, Borthwick, Lipman, Barkley.

Of the starting 22 therefore 12 came from those two clubs – a fatal over reliance IMO.

Only two Tigers featured in all three tests – one only for ten minutes. A fatal under reliance IMHO.


Staniforth has gone to London Irish if you fancy backing the exiles? Matt Burke to Falcons of course. McCrae (curse him) is at Glaws. Bartholomeusz and Mosese Rauluni at Saracens. And of course Pat Howard to Tigers. Go on – you know you want to support Jonno’s side really.

Pots and kettles, or hospitals and charities as one of our favourite grenouilles is apt to type.

Sadly that is fair enough.

Did you see the flanker? Burger? He can play.

it was the blindside who impressed me – I assume that was Burger. Only 21!

Yep. But did they have any reliable field kickers?

Hodgson and Barkley both are supposed to be – but Lewsey is not. More reason to bring Perry back at 15 I guess. Perry was the Lions fullback in 2001 – still not 30.

To be honest, I think you'd peaked before the World Cup, and J**** and several others got you home.

There is no way I can argue that really is there?

That great Aussie of old Michael Lynagh has been at Wimbledon (where Timbo will hopefully be sending Mark P home from today) and of course the interviews with him has had to cover the match last weekend. He was asked if the three tests devalued the RWC win and he was his usual diplomatic self saying ‘not at all – they worthily beat what came in front of them then and that’s the end of that story’. Hard to believe he played alongside Campo?

He also pointed out it’s the first RWC where the winners returned home to plough straight into a domestic campaign. He thinks we play too much rugby here. That old chestnut.

They're talking about trying to persuade him to stay, but I don't like their chances. He's his own man.

At the same time I am hoping we announce his signing. Oxford is not that far. Roff-Murphy is a wing pairing I would like to see!

Surely enough for you to barrack for the Wallabies!

I really can’t. It would feel like a betrayal of Jonno.

There's a lot of delusion around the place.

At the risk of repeating myself doesn’t it make you miss the more measured (and fairer) post match thoughts of the lock jaw?

He obviously doesn't have a palate. I've never known so much wonderful produce murdered in restaurant kitchens as in New Zealand.

He is English, Fine Cuisine to us means adding vinegar to the Haki and chips.

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Originally posted by Havak
Wasps players: Lewsey, Voyce (although he is returning to Bath next season), Payne, Shaw, Worsley, Dallaglio, Waters.

As to who might be a barrack room lawyer take your pick.

Bath players: Catt (off to London Irish), Tindall, Borthwick, Lipman, Barkley.

Mmm. I'd love to know who was grizzling. Hopefully it will come out sooner or later.

Staniforth has gone to London Irish if you fancy backing the exiles? Matt Burke to Falcons of course. McCrae (curse him) is at Glaws. Bartholomeusz and Mosese Rauluni at Saracens. And of course Pat Howard to Tigers. Go on – you know you want to support Jonno’s side really.

Just for that, I might support Bath.

it was the blindside who impressed me – I assume that was Burger. Only 21!

Yep. Burger's the blindside. I assume he was around in S12, but I didn't notice him. They also have van Niekerk back for the Tri-Nations. Makes for a fairly potent back row.

That great Aussie of old Michael Lynagh has been at Wimbledon (where Timbo will hopefully be sending Mark P home from today)

Yep. The Poo fails again.

and of course the interviews with him has had to cover the match last weekend. He was asked if the three tests devalued the RWC win and he was his usual diplomatic self saying ‘not at all – they worthily beat what came in front of them then and that’s the end of that story’. Hard to believe he played alongside Campo?

Who in their right mind thinks anything that happens post-RWC devalues a RWC win? That was then. A moment in time. England were the best team in the world for a couple of years prior to the RWC. That was then, this is now. Very recent events - and the rankings - say England is no longer the best team in the world. The day after the RWC, the title becomes, for want of a better term, an historical document.

He also pointed out it’s the first RWC where the winners returned home to plough straight into a domestic campaign. He thinks we play too much rugby here. That old chestnut.

And it's unlikely to happen again until the RWC is held in the SH at the same time of year and a NH team wins it.

At the same time I am hoping we announce his signing. Oxford is not that far. Roff-Murphy is a wing pairing I would like to see!

He's so valuable when he's on song. He's an extra playmaker - on top of Larkham and Gregan - for the oppo to worry about.

I really can’t. It would feel like a betrayal of Jonno.

It would guarantee J**** a place in the England camp, guaranteeing an improvement in England's fortunes. Talk about a test of your ultimate loyalties!

At the risk of repeating myself doesn’t it make you miss the more measured (and fairer) post match thoughts of the lock jaw?

Yes. How things change. And imagine if Clive and Nose had been in charge of the last Lions tour? (To which you reply that the tour might/would have turned out differently. I was indulging in a hypothetical)

He is English, Fine Cuisine to us means adding vinegar to the Haki and chips.

Strike the East Midlands off my culinary tour!

[Havak]

When Clive gets sacked the inevitable warts and all ghost written biography will tell us who the grizzlers were. I would imagine there were 31 of them on the plane home from Sydney.

I can recommend supporting Bath – I have a feeling their season in the sun is over again for a while.

Makes for a fairly potent back row.

It’s going to be interesting to see how they go. That back row is potent – and also very young.

Yep. The Poo fails again.

Suspect temperament? He started arguing with the umpire in the third set and despite a brief comeback never really settled back in to the game. Henman of course did his traditional thing – broke then got two match points on Mark’s serve and failed to convert them, then dropped his own serve…it’s emotionally wearing watching him even if you don’t like tennis!

Who in their right mind thinks anything that happens post-RWC devalues a RWC win?

BBC Commentators apparently.

And not even close to the peak right now. Probably down to 5th in reality (Ireland have peaked I think). It will worry me more if no recovery has occurred by late 2006. Presumably France are now putting their feet up then? No place in the schedules for them to visit the SH now – perhaps they are playing Spain or Holland instead?

And it's unlikely to happen again until the RWC is held in the SH at the same time of year and a NH team wins it.

Even this far out France have to be favourites. Their record at home is awesome. And should they win it they face England at Stade de France in Spring 2008 of course. But then keep in mind they beat this England side by only three points there this year – in hindsight not as impressive as it should have been.

Talk about a test of your ultimate loyalties!

I just can’t do it – it feels, well, simply wrong.

I’ll mix and match the tri-nations though – although I am tempted to cheer the Boks on now they are playing great rugby. What a difference 18 months makes?

(To which you reply that the tour might/would have turned out differently. I was indulging in a hypothetical)

And hypothetically speaking it would have been totally different. We would have lost in Brisbane too!

That’s a very clean mop you are cleaning the floor with!

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Originally posted by Havak
I can recommend supporting Bath – I have a feeling their season in the sun is over again for a while.

Oh. Mmmmm. I couldn't stomach Wasps while Nose is there. I need a bona fide up and comer. Newcastle must improve sooner or later?

Suspect temperament? He started arguing with the umpire in the third set and despite a brief comeback never really settled back in to the game. Henman of course did his traditional thing – broke then got two match points on Mark’s serve and failed to convert them, then dropped his own serve…it’s emotionally wearing watching him even if you don’t like tennis!

The Poo will go down as one of the great underachievers. He keeps being distracted by bints - his latest is a local ex-soapie actress/pop singer - and he's too much under the influence of his father who keeps driving away good coaches. He has the game and the ability to be permanent top 5 but not the application. Super Tim has the game to be permanent top 10, wonderful application, but just not quite good enough at any part of the game to win a major, methinks.

It will worry me more if no recovery has occurred by late 2006.

Cripes, if you haven't picked up by then, you're in big trouble. It's really a test of the true depth of English rugby. And a coach, of course.

Presumably France are now putting their feet up then? No place in the schedules for them to visit the SH now – perhaps they are playing Spain or Holland instead?

Or the grenouille s***** team. They're on hols now, apparently. Actually, they should take on Stade Francais. No other bastard seems to be able to beat them.

Even this far out France have to be favourites. Their record at home is awesome.

So's Tamerlin's.

But then keep in mind they beat this England side by only three points there this year – in hindsight not as impressive as it should have been.

How did that happen? Obviously the England wheels hadn't fallen off at that stage. Although the All Blacks and Wallabies did both play very good rugby.

I’ll mix and match the tri-nations though – although I am tempted to cheer the Boks on now they are playing great rugby. What a difference 18 months makes?

You might as well support them. I don't think we'll have anyone else in the thread on their side. Unless our Bok chum reappears. Don't forget, though, that Bothe, their lock, is the one who gouged and bit Brendan Canon. We'll see whether he's had a personality transplant.

That’s a very clean mop you are cleaning the floor with!

He'd just come back from grooming. It lasts until the first time he jams his head into the food bowl!

EDIT. Forgot to report that Andre Watson is retiring. Cue Havak's jig. I've also just noticed that Perpignan has shafted their coach. An opening for you, Tamerlin.

[Havak]

Newcastle must improve sooner or later?

Without a doubt. But it’s Rob Andrew’s happy little band of soldiers there – could you handle that?

Super Tim has the game to be permanent top 10, wonderful application, but just not quite good enough at any part of the game to win a major, methinks.

I would agree with you. ‘Nearly but not quite’ will be his epitaph.

Interesting about Mark P. I have thought for a while Hewitt too has not reached his potential since the inclusion of a Belgian in his life? Not sure if he has a controlling parent too?

Cripes, if you haven't picked up by then, you're in big trouble. It's really a test of the true depth of English rugby. And a coach, of course.

Clive doesn’t like tests – he likes praise.

There is strength in depth – almost everywhere from 1-5.

Actually that is perhaps a little unfair – there are some very good youngsters around including some girlies – but the current coach has ignored them thus far with an odd exception (the ‘success’ with Jones and Barkley coming in).

Actually, they should take on Stade Francais. No other bastard seems to be able to beat them.

They are an annoying team – whatever pressure you put them under there’s a little Argie/Italian fellow who keeps kicking them back into contention by turning the scoreboard and giving them five metre line outs from penalties conceded in their 22.

Actually I think the last competitive game we lost (Tigers that is) was to SF in February so I’m joining Tamerlin where they are concerned -

Although the All Blacks and Wallabies did both play very good rugby.

It’s quite easy to explain. France raced to a huge half time lead and then forgot to come back out. They just faded totally and were rather relieved at the end I would say. But that is France all over – patches of superb play mixed in with periods of strange lethargy…

And yes both the ABs and Wallabies did play very impressive rugby. Buggers!

We'll see whether he's had a personality transplant.

I think I will cheer them on. I actually don’t condone teeth and gouging at all – recent defence of knees not withstanding!

Gouging is ruddy lethal and any player doing it should be life banned –the optic nerves do not like meeting nails…

He'd just come back from grooming. It lasts until the first time he jams his head into the food bowl!

Before and after piccies?

USAP ditch a coach just for losing a final? Is the club President a Kiwi by any chance?

The European Cup draw takes place later today. One last bastion where England hold all the silverware. I want us to draw Wasps.

Watson? Well he made the RWC final close and entertaining for the neutral didn't he? Even if the coal face baffled him more than the average ref.