Rugby - Truck and Trailer!

[Havak]

You were immersed in your funk at the time.

If you followed a team coached by Sir C and skippered by the Nose you would reach your funk occasionally as well.

I suppose that's where the caveat comes into play. Leicester, of course, will be unaffected.

I wonder how many of the Wasps and Bath wannabes can hope to be involved in the autumn quite honestly. Expect many more Tigers in the EPS next season.

History does show that being let go by the Waratahs is usually a sure sign of outstanding talent ignored.

The exception proves the rule – McCrae.

Lipman is bound to get some game time – and kick off is a reasonable hour (10:30 BST I think) so I look forward to seeing a Wallaby side missing only three of the RWC final starters take on a team with only five survivors. Lambs to the slaughter?

Giteau is massively more slippery than Flatley, and he plays very low to the ground, so he's hard to barrel. He's literally a second 5/8.

Sounds a tough job for the old man and the bang bang boy we are fielding. If only Smith wasn’t on the operation table this summer. If only Jonno was still there. If only wishes were fishes?

Amongst the idiots there are some sensible, very knowledgeable posters. They seem to have Clive pretty well pegged.

Thank you. I use a different alias there of course.

He behaved himself. His first outing, maybe he was shy.

His first start in NZ – but he has plenty of caps. He is quite old (32 I think). Titterall is the future, as is Chuter perhaps.

What you need to know about Regan is that I can’t take him seriously ever since Bath visited us in 1999 and Richard Cockerill got under his skin so much he ended up throwing to us in the line out and leaving the field pretty much in tears. It leaves a lasting impression.

He's also pragmatic. Inscrutable, even. You'll rarely know his true feelings. Clive, OTOH, can't hide his.

Out former coach was the same – Richards that is. Best way to be.

Henry is more emotional than Eddie – less than Clive. But I remind my Kiwi conquerors again that he set new records for Wales at both ends of his tenure. It took him about 12 months to upset absolutely everyone in the Welsh setup.

[Havak]

I know Finbar has voiced concerns about Phil Waughs IQ over the years so I wonder what he makes of this:

"England are still very physical, very strong up front and Test matches are won up front," said Waugh.

"Whichever forward pack dominates set pieces and the tackle contest will win the game.

"They are still a very experienced forward pack, a very strong forward pack.

"I think Joe Worsley and Richard Hill play hard on the ball, Lawrence plays hard on the ball as well. They lose a little bit of experience losing Neil Back, but not a lot in terms of the combination of their back row."


Yes Phil - but what they do lose in those circumstances is someone who grabs the ball and gains some possession.

[Havak]

Three in a row.

Dean Richards is taking over as head coach at Grenoble. Tamerlin and LDiCesare may get to speak to the great man himself.

[Caligastia]

I suppose the civ gold betting is dead? Nobody seemed interested last weekend.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak


If you followed a team coached by Sir C and skippered by the Nose you would reach your funk occasionally as well.

I follow the Waratahs, remember? I've long since learned to laugh.

I wonder how many of the Wasps and Bath wannabes can hope to be involved in the autumn quite honestly. Expect many more Tigers in the EPS next season.

Tell me. If there's any truth in that story about the club players grizzling about Clive to their coach while in New Zealand - and I'm sure there was something in it - who might the players have been?

The exception proves the rule – McCrae.

Cheap shot. Actually, I was referring to players let go by the Waratahs without even being tried - Mark Gerard being the latest in a long line. They signed him straight from school, nurtured him, then flicked him.

Lipman is bound to get some game time – and kick off is a reasonable hour (10:30 BST I think) so I look forward to seeing a Wallaby side missing only three of the RWC final starters take on a team with only five survivors. Lambs to the slaughter?

7pm here, I think, so that's 10am for you. Switch on at 10am just in case. If you switch on at 10.30, discover the Wallabies are already leading 28-0, that Shaw has already been red carded again, you might be less than pleased to have missed the fun.

Sounds a tough job for the old man and the bang bang boy we are fielding. If only Smith wasn’t on the operation table this summer. If only Jonno was still there. If only wishes were fishes?

Yeah, you'd have an aquarium full.

Thank you. I use a different alias there of course.

Thankfully it seems to be a Tiger-free zone. Plenty of Wasps supporters. Though I suppose they've come out of the woodwork of late. A bit like Gloucester supporters a season ago. Who? Moi?

What you need to know about Regan is that I can’t take him seriously ever since Bath visited us in 1999 and Richard Cockerill got under his skin so much he ended up throwing to us in the line out and leaving the field pretty much in tears. It leaves a lasting impression.

A bit of a habit with your England hookers!

Henry is more emotional than Eddie – less than Clive. But I remind my Kiwi conquerors again that he set new records for Wales at both ends of his tenure. It took him about 12 months to upset absolutely everyone in the Welsh setup.

I'm sure it depends entirely upon how long he keeps winning. The Tri-Nations will be très interesting this year. Henry's new methods will get a very good work out. That young Bok side looks to have nice potential, even if Ireland were misfiring. They're big and strong and very mobile. And very positive. Playing very different rugby to what Straeuli was producing. And if they can get the ball out to Paulse, and if that other talented young winger - who's even quicker than Paulse - comes back from injury, they will have some fun with nothing to lose. Exactly what we can achieve - well, we'll know more after tomorrow night.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
I know Finbar has voiced concerns about Phil Waughs IQ over the years so I wonder what he makes of this:

"England are still very physical, very strong up front and Test matches are won up front," said Waugh.

"Whichever forward pack dominates set pieces and the tackle contest will win the game.

"They are still a very experienced forward pack, a very strong forward pack.

"I think Joe Worsley and Richard Hill play hard on the ball, Lawrence plays hard on the ball as well. They lose a little bit of experience losing Neil Back, but not a lot in terms of the combination of their back row."

Typical Phil Waugh, basically. He always recognises the qualities of the oppo.

Yes Phil - but what they do lose in those circumstances is someone who grabs the ball and gains some possession.

Typical Phil Waugh, basically. IQ of a single-cell organism.

Anyway - best of, um, Brisbane luck tomorrow!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I suppose the civ gold betting is dead? Nobody seemed interested last weekend.

Damn! Forgot all about it again! You have to remember to remind us earlier in the week!

BTW, how many points do you want to give the Argies?

[Tamerlin]

Gee! five pages of drivel since my last post.

Gentlemen, could you please work a bit more and have less time on Apolyton while you are at work so that catching up with the thread is not a nightmare when real life is bogging you down a few days.

Thanks!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by finbar

BTW, how many points do you want to give the Argies?

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Damn! Forgot all about it again! You have to remember to remind us earlier in the week!

BTW, how many points do you want to give the Argies?

Well they typically do poorly away from home, and the ABs are looking good this year....60 points?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Gee! five pages of drivel since my last post.

And the standard just dropped even further!

Gentlemen, could you please work a bit more and have less time on Apolyton while you are at work so that catching up with the thread is not a nightmare when real life is bogging you down a few days.

Get your priorities right!

1. Eating rugby.
2. Sleeping rugby.
3. Drinking rugby.
4. Sh*tting rugby.
5. Posting here about rugby.

Oh, and typical of grenouille rugby to extend its domestic season just to avoid being flogged by SH teams along with all the other NH teams!



Oh, and the Andrew Johns saga has been settled. He's staying with L***** after the L**** broadcast rights holders coughed up to match the packaged offered by the Waratahs. Coward. Now he'll never know how he would have fared in a real game.

And just to blow up any bridges remaining between NSW rugby and the ARU, apparently the ARU - having already denied NSW funding to buy Rogers - meddled further in the latest negotiations by contacing Johns' L***** club to say that Johns wasn't really wanted in rugby.

[Havak]

Finbar I’ll respond to those questions on Monday – being dragged shopping in five minutes so only have time to post the pre-prepared thoughts below…

Did England have a defence? I saw very little evidence of one. There’s no point sticking with teams for fifty minutes up front only to get blown away in a ten minute period where you repeatedly turn over ball like Schoolboys in the girlies trying to run from deep in your own territory. What dismayed me most was the way they didn’t learn from that – after the first time the Wallaby back line strolls through your defence at will you should put boot to ball and drive the ball as deep into touch as possible so you can attack the Wallaby line out (where they did not look impressive, ditto the scrum). But no keep running from deep and spill ball to Rathbone/Tuquiri/Paul (delete as applicable) and make yourselves look like you shouldn’t be on the park. Tactically naive – Jonno would have sorted it, Dally seems incapable.

Thank god the Aussies didn’t get more ball – it could have been much worse!

And such a shame Rathbone picked Australia when deciding what nationality he would like to be – if only he had picked England.

Going forward? No penetration, no precision just Power (admittedly in spades). It’s not good enough – we have regressed 15 years in seven months.

But I take nothing away from Australia – very well played – they had everything from the preceding sentence. The tri-nations will be fascinating – the Kiwi forwards should cause them great problems but the Aussie mid-field will do the same back. Can you arrange for the NZ based games to kick off late at night there so I don’t have to get up at 7am?

As for today a few crumbs - I was pleased to see White give Youngy a torrid time – and pleased to see Cozza come on when over rated Worseley limped off as I thought he added something to carrying the ball up and greatly improved defence around the ruck. Why didn’t he start? Such a shame he conceded the penalty that made the fifty though. And Hilly was all at see against proper open sides yet again. Borthwick confirmed he is not an International lock – but the villain of last week Mr Shaw had a solid game so good for him. Lipman – in the few minutes he was on I liked what I saw I have to say. Good on him for deciding to be English. And of course on this evidence maybe we do need to look to Van Gisbergen next year after all. We are going to become the English Colonial XV?

Okay so Clive picked this side from the ‘form’ teams (i.e. the ones who did not really contribute to the RWC win) and it has proved to be a disaster. Whatever direction he is following with selection it is not working. There are players on the field who do not belong in Tests – the most obvious today was Waters for me – every move stopped dead as he got the ball because he did too!

Any rational coach might have to accept he is not the man to turn this team around and walk. Clive I suspect will have to be fired, such is his ego. And I wish they would do so now – it’s a rebuilding time anyway, better to do it with a fresh coach with fresh ideas. Clive has been badly caught out for the way he rode the coat tails of a greater man (lock jaw). Five losses in eight since the RWC final Clive – four in a row, five from the last six I believe. Defend your record sir – or get the hell out of dodge!

You might note ALL my anger is directed at England this week – specifically the knighted one.

I’m glad Martin has committed to one more year at Welford Road. And whilst I might wish another year after that I think I would rather that in Summer 2005 he joins the coaching setup of England – he then has two years to put some backbone back in the rabbits. How obvious is it now who was the power behind the RWC win?

As for the other game so far it looks like the Pumas did better up front than England!! A Shame the back lines were so disparate?

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
being dragged shopping in five minutes

For a backline coach?

Did England have a defence? I saw very little evidence of one. There’s no point sticking with teams for fifty minutes up front only to get blown away in a ten minute period where you repeatedly turn over ball like Schoolboys in the girlies trying to run from deep in your own territory. What dismayed me most was the way they didn’t learn from that – after the first time the Wallaby back line strolls through your defence at will you should put boot to ball and drive the ball as deep into touch as possible so you can attack the Wallaby line out (where they did not look impressive, ditto the scrum). But no keep running from deep and spill ball to Rathbone/Tuquiri/Paul (delete as applicable) and make yourselves look like you shouldn’t be on the park. Tactically naive – Jonno would have sorted it, Dally seems incapable.

I thought the basic tactic - keep the ball in hand, don't give it to us - was sound thinking. England dominated possession something like 75-25 in the first half and sometimes had us stretched. But what did England do with the ball? Showed off some beautiful passing before running into some ferocious defence and losing the ball. Why pass so early? Hold up the ball, draw defenders, break up the defensive line. It looked like the backline had been given its head without any clues how actually to attack.

I suspect booting the ball away might have ended up in the same result. Our lineout fell apart the minute Canon was injured. He'd been throwing pretty well. Paul's throwing has always been dodgy and it stank tonight. But we weren't going to lose all our lineouts. The backline would still have been activated and England's dodgy defence would still have been exposed.

Thank god the Aussies didn’t get more ball – it could have been much worse!

I think we still ended up something like 40-60 down on possession. So it's not a matter of how often you've got it, it's what you do with it.

And such a shame Rathbone picked Australia when deciding what nationality he would like to be – if only he had picked England.

My prayers for Wendell to tweak his hammy in the warm up were answered! Hard for Eddie to drop Rathbone now. But I still think he's a natural centre. And he still reminds me of a very young Timmy Horan.

But I take nothing away from Australia – very well played – they had everything from the preceding sentence. The tri-nations will be fascinating – the Kiwi forwards should cause them great problems but the Aussie mid-field will do the same back. Can you arrange for the NZ based games to kick off late at night there so I don’t have to get up at 7am?

Tonight's England team, for various reasons, isn't a patch on last year's team, but I'm more than satisfied tonight. The Wallabies did it again - performed when they had to. And, yet again, their game tonight in no way resembled their games against the Scots. I mean tactically. Eddie had something orchestrated for England. One day I'll accept that he does this. The scrums were embarrassing, but I'm used to that. In fact, give us a decent front row, and we could be quite a reasonable team.

Okay so Clive picked this side from the ‘form’ teams (i.e. the ones who did not really contribute to the RWC win) and it has proved to be a disaster. Whatever direction he is following with selection it is not working. There are players on the field who do not belong in Tests – the most obvious today was Waters for me – every move stopped dead as he got the ball because he did too!

Mr Havak, your mission, should you decide to accept it, is to post the team you would pick for (in academic terms) England's next Test. As if they were playing next week. You can't have J****, and Wilkinson is injured, but everyone else is available. Who would you eject? Who would you insert?

Any rational coach might have to accept he is not the man to turn this team around and walk. Clive I suspect will have to be fired, such is his ego. And I wish they would do so now – it’s a rebuilding time anyway, better to do it with a fresh coach with fresh ideas. Clive has been badly caught out for the way he rode the coat tails of a greater man (lock jaw). Five losses in eight since the RWC final Clive – four in a row, five from the last six I believe. Defend your record sir – or get the hell out of dodge!

I suppose his real test - as far as the Lords and Masters are concerned - will be in the autumn. Wilkinson might be back, other injuries will have recovered, weariness can't be used as an explanation. After all, SH teams tour the NH at the end of their seasons. He still start with a clean sheet. See what happens.

Oh, and Nose still isn't a skipper's a*sehole. Running around, red-faced, berating the ref isn't captaining a team. Still, at least he verged on gracious in his after-match interview, even if he continues to overestimate the way his team played on this tour.

You might note ALL my anger is directed at England this week – specifically the knighted one.

Played in pretty good spirit tonight, I thought.

I’m glad Martin has committed to one more year at Welford Road. And whilst I might wish another year after that I think I would rather that in Summer 2005 he joins the coaching setup of England – he then has two years to put some backbone back in the rabbits. How obvious is it now who was the power behind the RWC win?

I'd bet Civ gold he'll be into the England set up sooner rather than later. He might even be the first England coach never to have coached at club level.

As for the other game so far it looks like the Pumas did better up front than England!! A Shame the back lines were so disparate?

I only saw the first half. The Pumas certainly held their own in the set pieces. The ABs were just too slippery in broken play, as expected.

[Tamerlin]

Stade Français 38 - Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan 20

The Parisians are champions for the second time in a row.

There is not much to say as they dominated the Catalans on all grounds, line outs, scrums, mauls, kicks, forwards, rear lines... mastery of the game of Rugby.

Real barometer of the Catalans, Manu Edmonds played largely under its best level but can not be targetted as the culprit as the whole team has been smothered by the Stade Français.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Stade Français 38 - Union Sportive des Arlequins de Perpignan 20

The Parisians are champions for the second time in a row.

There is not much to say as they dominated the Catalans on all grounds, line outs, scrums, mauls, kicks, forwards, rear lines... mastery of the game of Rugby.

Real barometer of the Catalans, Manu Edmonds played largely under its best level but can not be targetted as the culprit as the whole team has been smothered by the Stade Français.

I saw SF in a couple of their HC matches. They're not very good! How come they keep winning your comp?