Rugby - Truck and Trailer!

[Tamerlin]

Originally posted by Havak
... and risk allowing Kiwis to drift into another comfort zone of confident believed pre-eminence maybe? Perhaps?

Provided they have discovered again that forwards are needed for a good game of Rugby I am not pi**** off with this. What bothered me a lot was the kind of hodge podge remotely related to Rugby they were playing before these test matches. My only regret is that the said tests are not broadcasted in France and that I will not have the occasion to check by myself if the Midi Olympique is really right when it writes that the forwards of the All Blacks are back.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Clive’s genius will turn things around (note irony button still fully switched on here).

No, that transcends irony, heading towards that which had Iraq bristling with WMDs and involved in 9/11.

No if I was feeling nasty I would constantly use the RWC, and who won it, as a blunt instrument.

Feel free! Past glories are always worth a re-visit. RWC, Mafekig, the list is endless.

And that will not be enough. If you want a decent game from them phone Clive and ask if you can borrow 22 England shirts – that will get them going nicely.

Yes, England and Scotland could swap shirts. Guaranteeing England would play in a manner befitting the colours.

It’s clear the ARU is not prepared to give up on the investment in Sailor just yet. It may be he does well against the Scots again – and probably us – but when he comes up against the ABs and they are punting the ball in space behind him it could be fun.

All of that, plus Rathbone is the future, Wendell isn't. I notice Mark Gerard wasn't considered because of fitness.

How about the return Ireland-Boks game?

I wish I'd seen the second half of the first match. Ireland certainly looked classier. I don't know what happened. I read something about them stuffing up tactically, playing to Bok strengths, letting that huge Bok lock - the one who bit and gouged Brendan Canon last year - run rampant. If Ireland stick to playing through the skipper, they should win.

And Wales-Argentina – I’m a Puma fan there naturally.

I suppose the worry is that both teams might discover the word "defence" in their tactics manual and play a stinker.

Ones things for sure another weekend of SH Whitewashes will undo much of the good work of the last four years - and risk allowing Kiwis to drift into another comfort zone of confident believed pre-eminence maybe? Perhaps?

Comfort zone? That implies a territory out of which they could be shocked. Who do you suggest might be capable of doing the shocking?

And where are France when the home nations are putting it on the line at the end of a long season?

Where else? Comparing barrettes!

[finbar]

Originally posted by Tamerlin
Provided they have discovered again that forwards are needed for a good game of Rugby I am not pi**** off with this. What bothered me a lot was the kind of hodge podge remotely related to Rugby they were playing before these test matches. My only regret is that the said tests are not broadcasted in France and that I will not have the occasion to check by myself if the Midi Olympique is really right when it writes that the forwards of the All Blacks are back.

Recognise these pearls of wisdom from late last week?

We will soon learn if the Kiwis have managed to find some true forwards.

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Havak
After all NZ were lucky last weekend – and will be lucky this coming weekend, and will be lucky when they Slam the tri-nations again. Always said they were over-rated.

(Kiwis please read that carefully so as not to miss the treacle heavy irony).

There's enough treacle in there to satisfy my porridge for the rest of the year.
Or at least there would be if I still ate porridge.

How much do you think I am expecting to drink?

Plugged the equation into my crappy desktop calculator but it couldn't handle the numbers. I blame Linux.


Sadly it seems that Howlett is going to be out for a while - something unusual in his dislocated shoulder puts him in doubt for the test against the Puma's next weekend too.
Luckily we have enough North Aucklanders to cover for him.

[Havak]

Well we made it to Thursday before conclusive proof that the ABs cheated came from the England camp.
England forward coach Andy Robinson, a renowned analyst, said the lineout was a key area of the first Test where the All Blacks were given excessive freedom.
"They didn't win lineout ball in the air against us, they won it because of the way they took out the lifters and interfered with the jumpers," he said.
"Clearly we want that refereed and clearly we've got to look at that area ourselves. In the end it's about being streetwise."
Well he is right of course – although I doubt you would get a Kiwi to ever admit they are ever less than saintly in the way they play the game – but it’s part and parcel of the game and the England forwards should have been capable of handling it. the fact of the line out is that Grewcock and Borthwick had poor games. Brave in hindsight for Clive to rest the out of form Kay as Kay has run that line out for years – and without him it suddenly looked a bit naive?
Nice to see Marshall suddenly talking like they can take apart any team by just throwing it wide though isn’t it. Worked well against the Wallabies last time I seem to recall.

provided the current holder does not let it fade away.

Several problems are afflicting us Tamerlin – mounting two tours at once was not a problem last year but this time the personnel split between them seems to have been wrong. Add in a coach with a god complex developing (who rested key players on a whim), several young stars injured and unable to go (Smith, Moody, Forrester…), the absence of a towering skipper and the missing points machine that converted 90% of penalties in the oppo half to points and it’s all a bit glum.

But apart from all that we are in rude health.

The Kiwi forwards were outstanding by recent standards – a performance full of niggle, power and ‘art’ (or craftiness). At the same time England’s pack were awful – so the mixture of the two got embarrassing.

No, that transcends irony..

Pure fantasy then?

Feel free! Past glories are always worth a re-visit. RWC, Mafekig, the list is endless.

Cardiff?

Yes, England and Scotland could swap shirts. Guaranteeing England would play in a manner befitting the colours.

Lots of effort and little skill? Well we got that half right last week – just didn’t put enough effort in as well.

I notice Mark Gerard wasn't considered because of fitness.

Not quite as black as you feared then? I’m sure vunder-Bok will replace Sailor at some point in the game.

Hmm I don’t enjoy that as much now we filed our own Boks and Aussies. And look how much they have improved us.

If Ireland stick to playing through the skipper, they should win.

The mess up front surprised me a little – the combination of O’Connell and O’Kelly is pretty damn good in the second row but they struggled in the set pieces. They are perhaps a little lacking in the front row – and as we all know rely on tenuous exiles for the back rows slots quite a lot.

BOD given free reign can cut a team to pieces though – and he looks in better form than the 6N. The problem is the fullback was injured last week and the team has been tinkered with. They are playing the big wing Horgan at 12 meaning BOD goes to 13 (not as bad as it sounds – Horgan has played 12 a lot). Murphy moves from left to his preferred right wing.

If the Lions were picked now Murphy would be in the test side I think – playing very well (and that is with a metal pin in his leg).

Comfort zone? That implies a territory out of which they could be shocked. Who do you suggest might be capable of doing the shocking?

They are a damn good side – but any of the top five sides can beat them. Take them away from NZ – something they are traditionally reluctant to do against top sides – and you take their main advantage away. Having headed north twice in the last two years they seem to have slipped back to insular mode – we need to get them up playing France or England (assuming I am allowed to pick the side rather than Clive).

Personally I believe the ABs will lose on 27th November 2004 when they meet a team I believe to be possibly slightly better than them right now. Guess who? It is not Wales or Italy (why the hell are they wasting time playing those two on an NH tour?). I understand they declined an invitation to play us on the tour meaning we now face Canada and they take on Italy instead. Marvellously exciting fixture compared to the ABs.

And of course lets not forget the Wallabies. You live with and beat teams you often have no right to on paper – and you do this to the ABs regularly. I wonder how many of that AB side beaten in the semi final really thought before the game that was possible?

I’m also backing the Lions to beat them 3-0. I’m nothing if not optimistic. And assuming we are allowed to extend selection to France of course.

Plugged the equation into my crappy desktop calculator but it couldn't handle the numbers

Only a 12 digit display eh?

Luckily we have enough North Aucklanders to cover for him.

Be careful – the Aussies are after them too now. Ireland will be picking them next – you only need to have drunk one Guinness to qualify for spiritual residency.

If you saw the Wales-Puma game last weekend your boys will be absolutely salivating at the thought of getting a chance at running at the Pumas defence – it could be three figure score time! Then again it could be that Saturday.

[Havak]

Matt Burke may have talked to Worcester - but he has signed for Newcastle. Looks like Rob Andrew is keen on bringing in Wallabies at the moment.

I'm still waiting for Tigers to announce the signing of Rokocoko (or did I dream that?)

*edit* I dreamt it obviously - we have actually just announced the signing of Fijian Seru Rabeni from Highlanders. Can those of you who watched a lot of S12 help me out - is this a good signing?

[Andydog]

Originally posted by Havak
Well we made it to Thursday before conclusive proof that the ABs cheated came from the England camp.

England forward coach Andy Robinson, a renowned analyst, said the lineout was a key area of the first Test where the All Blacks were given excessive freedom.
"They didn't win lineout ball in the air against us, they won it because of the way they took out the lifters and interfered with the jumpers," he said.
"Clearly we want that refereed and clearly we've got to look at that area ourselves. In the end it's about being streetwise."

Last week our forwards came out with a specific game plan for their tight play. Amongst other things, this involved intimidating Jones in the lineout. Henry realised that Jones would have most of the responsibility for catching in the middle (and he was making the lineout calls), because Grewcock can only really jump at the front and this was already being done by Shaw. Henry also saw that Jones is inexperienced and pathetically skinny. Hence, Robinson ripped his head off a couple of times.

But I think the tactic that really damaged you lot was our rucking. First, we threw a lot of tight forwards into the rucks. Second, a couple of forwards concerned themselves with playing the ball or the man with the ball, while the rest (usually Robinson and occasionally Gibbes, Heyman and Mealamu) sought to disrupt the English around the ruck formation. They did this by coming round on the wrong side and rucking English players who were standing behind the ruck. We put the English forwards onto the floor by taking out their legs. We Tackled English forwards without the ball, we held onto tackles and put players onto the floor again after they tried to get up.

This ‘scatter’ rucking so screwed up the English defense system that we were were able to quickly get the ball out wide.

Yes a lot of that is illegal, but as you mention Havak, it’s part and parcel of the game and your forwards didn’t adapt and so deserved to get the spanking they did.

Here’s something interesting I read this morning:

Trouble brews in England camp

There's "trouble at mill" within the visiting England rugby camp.
English premiership and European cup-winning club coach and former Waikato All Black Warren Gatland has told the Waikato Times that players are unhappy in the English setup under Sir Clive Woodward.
A barbecue earlier in the week with England players from Gatland's London Wasps club had revealed an unhappy bunch, frustrated by over-coaching from a vast array of specialist support staff.
"They are frustrated. They have about 19 coaching staff and they were saying they have so many meetings they almost have meetings about meetings," said Gatland, who is home on a holiday break.
Eight players from Wasps, whom Gatland guided to their second Zurich premiership title in England and a first-time victory in Europe's Heineken Cup, are in the tour party and six are due to start against the All Blacks in the second test at Auckland's Eden Park on Saturday night.
However, Gatland said Woodward had selected a much stronger test team second time around.
Gatland has also hinted he may cut short his remaining two-year contract with Wasps and return to New Zealand permanently next year, coaching in either Waikato or Auckland.

I'm not reading too much into this - the poms just had their arses handed to them on a plate and were probably still fuming after seeing exactly how crap they were on video, but they shouldn't really have been moaning to Warren about it, in spite of him being their club Boss and a mate.

[Havak]

Henry also saw that Jones is inexperienced and pathetically skinny. Hence, Robinson ripped his head off a couple of times.

Love those sweet friendly Kiwis.

Jones was a huge weakness spotted by lots of people (but not Clive) and it was exploited beautifully by Robinson. Shaw can jump at 2 and 4 but the base is a problem – Dally (don’t make me laugh)? He should have played Corry over Jones.

Yes a lot of that is illegal, but as you mention Havak, it’s part and parcel of the game and your forwards didn’t adapt and so deserved to get the spanking they did.

I’m not arguing with that. Our boys should have been able to beat down a bunch of misbehaving blackshirts without breaking sweat after all.

Lovely exaggerated description of the disruption btw. I can almost picture how Jonno would have countered that kind of play (I picture red cards…)

I'm not reading too much into this - the poms just had their arses handed to them on a plate and were probably still fuming after seeing exactly how crap they were on video

Damn - I knew I should have made more fun out of all the whining Kiwi players after last Junes test. Professional players do not like losing – and are accomplished whiners whatever colour the shirt.

I just think you are trying to get me to collude with Satan and support the Wallabies in the tri-nations.

but they shouldn't really have been moaning to Warren about it, in spite of him being their club Boss and a mate.

No they shouldn’t – and he should have had more sense than to reveal it to the press too. But then Wasps are a London club (Londoners eh? Tssk) – and a recently successful one to boot. That all points to arrogant egotistical players developing ‘we know better’ syndromes?

Ditch the Wasps – ditch the Bath monkeys – get some Tigers steel in the side.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

Cardiff?

No. Just RWC and Mafeking. Once every 104 years is England's lot.

Hmm I don’t enjoy that as much now we filed our own Boks and Aussies. And look how much they have improved us.

We'll find out, won't we? A Bok and an Aussie in the mix for the weekend. Clive might look around for any spare North Aucklanders while he's there. They know how to play in a backline. The incumbents don't.

BOD given free reign can cut a team to pieces though – and he looks in better form than the 6N. The problem is the fullback was injured last week and the team has been tinkered with. They are playing the big wing Horgan at 12 meaning BOD goes to 13 (not as bad as it sounds – Horgan has played 12 a lot). Murphy moves from left to his preferred right wing.

Horgan at 12? Good idea. He has always looked to me more of a centre than a winger. Gee, he's a big lump of a chap.

I understand they declined an invitation to play us on the tour meaning we now face Canada and they take on Italy instead.

After last weekend, they're probably looking for a competitive game.

I wonder how many of that AB side beaten in the semi final really thought before the game that was possible?

We'll have to wait for the ghosted "autobiographies". Good question, actually. I wonder if any of them had worked out what some of us had already worked out - they hadn't played anyone of any note. Boks aside.

I’m also backing the Lions to beat them 3-0. I’m nothing if not optimistic. And assuming we are allowed to extend selection to France of course.

Ah. We're at the morbid humour stage of dealing with the tragedy. Your own version of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' 6 stages of dealing with dying and death.

If you saw the Wales-Puma game last weekend your boys will be absolutely salivating at the thought of getting a chance at running at the Pumas defence – it could be three figure score time! Then again it could be that Saturday.

And there we go again!

Oh, and I caught up with Paul Weller in a doco on The Jam on the Biography Channel tonight. Mmmmm. You should give Chopin a listen.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Jones was a huge weakness

Nancy. Can't even throw a decent punch.

EDIT. The Scotland skipper will play after all. His injury was poetic justice. Shoulder charged David Lyons square in the moosh, hurt his own hip in the process. D*ckhead.

[Havak]

No. Just RWC and Mafeking. Once every 104 years is England's lot.

Glorious defeat is our lot now then? A series of Dunkirks?

They know how to play in a backline. The incumbents don't.

After last weekend, they're probably looking for a competitive game.

I know I should bite – but all I can do is

they hadn't played anyone of any note. Boks aside.

It is that hindsight thing again – on reflection their crushing pool games achieving a negative net result for them. I'm sure overconfidence raised it's ugly head.

Your own version of Elizabeth Kubler-Ross' 6 stages of dealing with dying and death.

I only use two forms of humour – ‘rampant superiority’ and ‘morbid’. Nothing has changed there.

Recommending Chopin after a doco on Paul Weller – could you be a bit blunter of what it was you were saying there please?

Shoulder charged David Lyons square in the moosh, hurt his own hip in the process. D*ckhead.

Pansy in fact – who injures their hip dropping the shoulder into some doofs gob?

Scott Murray is in fact a nice guy of rugby – who has occasional red mists. Hmm – reminds me of someone else…except in skill level…

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak

It is that hindsight thing again – on reflection their crushing pool games achieving a negative net result for them. I'm sure overconfidence raised it's ugly head.

Well, the foundations of their whole game were built on sand, weren't they. It's very very early days yet, obviously, but there's promise of something better than sand.

Recommending Chopin after a doco on Paul Weller – could you be a bit blunter of what it was you were saying there please?

Well, honestly. He filled a niche, I suppose. Give me the Clash and Sex Pistols. But Chopin above all of them.

Pansy in fact – who injures their hip dropping the shoulder into some doofs gob?

Scott Murray is in fact a nice guy of rugby –

Only the fact that he went down injured saved him a yellow card, IMHO. It was a blatant, very dangerous offence. Lyons had the ball, trying to break through a couple of tacklers, head exposed, and Murray charged his head with the shoulder. It's only that Lyon's head is concrete that saved him.

Oh, and Peter Fitzsimons has picked England again this week.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
Matt Burke may have talked to Worcester - but he has signed for Newcastle. Looks like Rob Andrew is keen on bringing in Wallabies at the moment.

They've probably given up on Samo. Burke is still a very handy player. Where do you think they will play him? Full back? Centres?

*edit* I dreamt it obviously - we have actually just announced the signing of Fijian Seru Rabeni from Highlanders. Can those of you who watched a lot of S12 help me out - is this a good signing?

My recollection is that he's yet another big, very quick, North Auckland winger. Drops out of sight a bit. Dangerous if he gets the ball and a bit of space. But not in the class of Rokococo or Caucau.

[Havak]

It's very very early days yet, obviously, but there's promise of something better than sand.

Hmm, the first part of that sentence is key. So far all they have done is beat a team that was poorly selected and then also failed to turn up in any meaningful way. One swallow does not make a summer. Henry will get it wrong at some point – his tenure at Wales also started very well after all.

Give me the Clash and Sex Pistols. But Chopin above all of them.

Eclectic taste there. Personally I quite like Weller’s body of work.

Oh, and Peter Fitzsimons has picked England again this week.

Oh good

So you are sure Murray was dangerous rather than just over enthusiastic as the weak scots defence bravely tried to hold the Wallabies back?

They've probably given up on Samo. Burke is still a very handy player. Where do you think they will play him? Full back? Centres?

According to the beeb they still expect Samo to honour his contract – litigation seems inevitable there.

It’s hard to predict Rob Andrew but my bet is Burke will go in at fullback most of the time – Falcons have Noon and Stephenson on their books (both with the team in Canada) and when Wilkinson is actually fit Walder tends to cover Centre positions too.

Dangerous if he gets the ball and a bit of space. But not in the class of Rokococo or Caucau.

Cheers Finbar – that matches what I have heard from others. Patty Howard thinks the lad has just the right combination of penetration and pace – and I guess if anyone will bring the best out of him it’s Pat. I do wonder if the Fijian lad knows what it is like playing on an English pitch in January though.

An additional signing announced today is Tongan Hooker Ephraim Taukafa. This is perhaps a bit strange as it gives us three quality hookers – Cockerill, Chuter and now Taukafa. It also seems we are getting as bad as the ABs for trawling ‘North Auckland’ – the irony there being this lad was actually born in Auckland.

Former Tongan coach Jim Love said this of him "Ephraim is a very talented footballer with a wide range of skills and an aggressive attitude. His style will suit English rugby."

Now what is he trying to say there?

All three Tigers lads start against the Maori – Jonno junior and especially Chuter impressed the coaches when they came on last weekend – Deacon being a fixture of course. If Chuter keeps his current momentum with the way his game is improving he may figure in the senior squad by the time the Wallabies arrive in the autumn – he is certainly more impressive than the dropped lardo at the moment.

[finbar]

Originally posted by Havak
So you are sure Murray was dangerous rather than just over enthusiastic as the weak scots defence bravely tried to hold the Wallabies back?

I got it wrong. I saw it again tonight. One tackler was hanging off Lyons, not two. Murray came head on, launched himself and shouldered Lyons in the face.

According to the beeb they still expect Samo to honour his contract – litigation seems inevitable there.

Oh well, fun and games. The rumor here is that he will be with the Waratahs next season and not the Brumbies.

It’s hard to predict Rob Andrew but my bet is Burke will go in at fullback most of the time – Falcons have Noon and Stephenson on their books (both with the team in Canada) and when Wilkinson is actually fit Walder tends to cover Centre positions too.

Oh well, he'll be more than serviceable at full back. Handy back up kicker, too.

Cheers Finbar – that matches what I have heard from others. Patty Howard thinks the lad has just the right combination of penetration and pace – and I guess if anyone will bring the best out of him it’s Pat.

Having thought about it, I saw him a couple of times late in the Highlanders' season. He's very quick. Saw him score a scintillating try. But he does go missing. I suspect there's half a dozen like him in the Kiwi S12 teams. Big, quick wingers from North Auckland aren't exactly hens' teeth.

I do wonder if the Fijian lad knows what it is like playing on an English pitch in January though.

As, thankfully, Samo will never discover.

His style will suit English rugby."

Now what is he trying to say there?

Possibly that he peaked in 2003? Never to rise again?

All three Tigers lads start against the Maori – Jonno junior and especially Chuter impressed the coaches when they came on last weekend – Deacon being a fixture of course. If Chuter keeps his current momentum with the way his game is improving he may figure in the senior squad by the time the Wallabies arrive in the autumn – he is certainly more impressive than the dropped lardo at the moment.

So how does it feel not to see [Tigers] after a player's name in the England team?
Actually, I know how how feel. I'm just reminding you.

*Havak's coffee mug goes flying*