What percentage of Americans are poor?

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

that's what freinds beleive

I of course disagree strongly


Jon Miller

[Al B. Sure!]

jon miller... from what little you have told me of your background, i know you know better... people make themselves poor. granted, being born into single parent homes to a drug addict will greatly hamper your chances of succeeding in life but we got public education, college scholarships, etc. ultimately, it is up to you and ultimately, you are the only one to blame for your economic failure

one dilemna are the reformed though... former criminals have a tough time getting a job and will likely stay in menial jobs (and stay poor) just because of their mistakes in the past. similiarily, a teenage mother will likely always be lower middle class no matter how hard she works.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus
No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

I disagree with this.

Many of the people born into poverty are stuck there. It was even worse in the past, but the industrialization and modernization of society along with universal public schooling has helped enlarge the middle class many times over.

What about people who are born to a single mom with 5 kids (who doesn't care what they do or what trouble they get into or whether or not they go to school) in a run-down apartment in a bad neighborhood with really crappy schools? For them the opportunity to aspire to the middle class simply doesn't exist. There's no one or reason to motivate them to do well in a failing school. With no money and no prior education the hopes for a middle-class job or college are down the drain.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
people make themselves poor. granted, being born into single parent homes to a drug addict will greatly hamper your chances of succeeding in life but we got public education, college scholarships, etc. ultimately, it is up to you and ultimately, you are the only one to blame for your economic failure

In many areas having public school doesn't mean a thing. With poor schools and no motivation kids won't automatically do the right thing. That's just how kids are. If no one is forcing them to go to school or teaching them right from wrong then why should they do the right thing?

If it were true that lazy people were the only ones who were poor then you'd see an equal % of people from every class who ended up in each segment of society - an equal number in the upper echelon, an equal number in the middle class and an equal number in poverty. But you don't. Because the system sucks people in and doesn't let them go. It takes a very strong-willed and often lucky person to pull themselves out of the lower class into the rest of what we consider "society."

[Ben Kenobi]

If it were true that lazy people were the only ones who were poor then you'd see an equal % of people from every class who ended up in each segment of society - an equal number in the upper echelon, an equal number in the middle class and an equal number in poverty. But you don't.

You are right that desire plays a big role, but so do examples. You can have an ardent desire to work but if your mom and dad are poor, why would you aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor?

But if your father is a doctor, or a lawyer, then you will have a much greater chance of aspiring to the same goal.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
You are right that desire plays a big role, but so do examples. You can have an ardent desire to work but if your mom and dad are poor, why would you aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor?

But if your father is a doctor, or a lawyer, then you will have a much greater chance of aspiring to the same goal.

Which basically furthers my claim that your situation helps determine where you're going rather than some innate property in people who end up poor.

If you have mom and dad as a doctor and a lawyer, naturally the desire to aspire to those positions will be passed down through the standards and rules they set for you. I'm willing to bet if you have a lawyer for a father and a doctor for a mother they will care more about how you perform in school and life than a deadbeat heroin addict mother who has 5 kids. And that will influence what direction you are pushed into.

The point is that your environment influences both the psychology and the opportunities for someone, whether they be poor or well-to-do. Like you said, if you have a role model and a goal to seek then that will help influence your psychology and push you to achieve more.

[Ben Kenobi]

Oh I agree fully.

I just don't think that it's negative that the sons and daughters of lawyers become lawyers themselves. It's not enough to just educate the kids, you would need a mentor who's willing to show the child a completely different world to what they may have seen before.

I've always thought it very true, that people are not afraid so much of failure, but of success. We are carefully couched not to push to avoid making others feel bad, or to avoid standing out ourselves. It's much more comfortable to stay right where you are.

[Jon Shafer]

I'm glad you agree.

I feel that claiming the poor are poor because they're lazy is not only false, but racist in a way. It's basically saying that the reason there is a greater proportion of Mexicans and African-Americans who are poor or turn to crime or otherwise underpriviledged is because they're lazier, less skilled and somehow inferior to whites.

[Theben]

50%, of course.

[Frankychan]

Originally posted by Saint Marcus


No one really. Capitalism works perfectly, and the only people who are "poor" are just too lazy to get a job.

I really do hope that this is a poor excuse for a troll.

[Theben]

Well, capitalism does work extremely well. For its intended purpose.

[Frankychan]

Ask anyone and they will tell you that they are "middle-class". The American society revolves around the myth that most families are "middle class" (I've said this in earlier threads). Our society is geared toward "being rich, or middle class" and those who are relatively worse off than others will strive to attain the image that they are indeed "middle class"....which means buying sh** that they don't need.

To say that "the poor deserve to be poor because they are lazy" is just stereotypical nonsense that is in the same league as being an ignorant racist....only it's classist.

Elitism in any form is just ignorance and oppression wrapped up in a nice little package.

[Jon Shafer]

We must form a society Comrade Marx would be proud of! Unite my brothers!

[Kropotkin]

After doing some comparative googling, I found out that the precentage of people with an income below $11 (PPP) is 13,6 % in the US. Worse than the Scandinavian countries (Norway; 4,3 %), Benelux, France (9,9 %) and Germany (7,3 %) but better than the UK with 15,7 %.

[Sikander]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


You are right that desire plays a big role, but so do examples. You can have an ardent desire to work but if your mom and dad are poor, why would you aspire to be a lawyer or a doctor?

But if your father is a doctor, or a lawyer, then you will have a much greater chance of aspiring to the same goal.

I agree with the general thrust of your argument, but it isn't quite as simple as that. Both of my parents grew up poor on farms to parents who only had high school educations (on my dad's side) or grade school educations (on my mom's side). Yet my parents both aspired to more than they grew up with, and my father became a professor and my mother a physician.

My sister and I both attended college and ended up working in technical fields. We didn't feel the need to achieve the same level of material success as our parents, and indeed felt that it would be better to live fuller lives rather than be slaves to a profession. This was a direct reaction to being neglected as our parents absented themselves constantly in pursuit of the almighty dollar and their own egos.

The bottom line for all of us though is that we had the opportunity to live the lives that we envisioned for ourselves. (Ok so I don't have a dozen supermodels lounging around my pool like I hoped for when I was in high school, but still.)

Had my parents been crack addicts rather than work-a-holics the outcome for us might have been quite different. Even though they dropped the ball to some extent with their parenting they did manage to give us a good example of what can be accomplished if one wants something enough.