What percentage of Americans are poor?

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by chegitz guevara
A lurker?

For the most part... Like I said above, I only address topics which pique my interest.

Originally posted by Arrian
Active as all hell in the CivIII forums, which is how I know him, but apparently an OT lurker.

Anyway, now that I know he was just playing dumb, I'll leave him be to have his kicks.

-Arrian

Anyone who has seen the OT should know how to structure an argument or a troll-trap.

[Japher]

You have to admit one way or the other - either a person's upbringing and original conditions have an impact on their potential success in life or it doesn't. You can't simply add in arguments like poor immigrants or slavery because you immediately concede that the situation does have an impact.

You said it; "Potential".

Those brought up by successful families have a tendency to be successful because that is what they feel they should do. On the contrary, those brought up under a government ceiling and collecting welfare for their whole, young lives will also see this as what they should do, as it is all the know.

With those surrounding them telling them that there is noting else for them, that they are being oppressed for whatever reason, that they just aren't good enough, etc... it is no wonder that the classes are moving further and further from each other. You say it enough times it will become true.

This is a sociatal problem, not an individual problem.

Still, I have seen, and know people who are born stubborn. Despite having parents that are push overs and being from a neighborhood that takes much more than it gives these people learn the value of hard work, and acquire the skills to make it work for them.

IMO, by addressing only the enviornment in which a person exits you (Trip) seem to be dismissing the other behavioral factor; nature.

People are people not only because of where they come from, but because of who they are. What they desire, what they feel, and how they are going to obtain that. This is not always given to a person by their environment. If that were the case we wouldn't have rags to riches stories or stories of yuppie kids offing their classmates in suburbia. Everyone has problems, and they aren't always due to their surroundings. All a person needs to do is recognize the problem, so that they can begin to address it.

Speer has seen his problem, and that is his environment. Whereas most other people would address it by abusing it, Speer has chosen avoid it, to learn from it, and to change himself such that he no longer has to stay in it. You telling him, or anyone else from a less than middle class environment that they are poor because they live amongst the poor is just as bad as telling someone they are stupid because they go to a bad school. Sometimes, Trip, the motivation has to be sought out, or it has to come from within, nothing comes without effort.

Poor is lazy, or poor is not caring, or poor is ignorance... You are right, poor is lack of motivation. You can lead a horse to water...

[:) Smiley]

Don't you guys call a microwave a nuke?

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Smiley
Don't you guys call a microwave a nuke?

No, though the act of using one may be referred to as nuking.

[chequita guevara]

Japher, there's a third part of the equation you're missing, and that's opportunity. It is much more difficult for someone from a poverty-background to find or make opportunities to succeed. Even then, they are at a disadvantage against those who do not face such adversities. Even if you bust your ass and excell, you might be denied because of the way you look, the way you speak, etc.

This can lead to bitterness and hopelessness. And others who see this will get the message. If you aren't allowed to succeed, why try? There isn't, and has never been, a glass ceiling. What there is, is a glass seive. Some can get out, most never will, no matter how hard they try, now matter how qualified they are.

That's a societal issue. As an indivual you have two choices. Fight anway, since failure is guaranteed by not trying or give up. Giving-up is death. If I ever get eaten by a shark and they find the shark the got me, they're gonna find bruises and bites and my fingernails in it. I'll probably lose, but I'm not gonna give up without a fight. I just might get away.

[Al B. Sure!]

Trip:

yet people still succeed... people still take what was dealt them and succeed. one man succeeding is enough prove that people can succeed. we just need a culture that motivates children if their parents do not fulfill this obligation.

that culture is, of course, a conservative culture that despises teenage sex, drug use, etc. and stresses material gain and hard work.

this culture, however, often becomes twisted, something which i think is the major cultural problem associated with poverty, more so than 'gangsterism'. prisons are abundant with crackpot, even racist, ideas, the result of prisons being filled with men seeking meaning... have you ever bought and mailed books that someone you know in jail asked you to buy? books about the end of days and the destruction of black civilization... books with titles like "From ******s to Gods"

this seeking of meaning is great and it exists in the minds and hearts of every poor person (i do not see the majority of us as being conditioned blind, deaf, and dumb by ineffective parents as much as you do)... the problem is this yearning for meaning often translates to susceptibility to embrace stupidity. Five Percenterism, African Liberation groups, etc. are immensely popular among the talented majority that truly strives but takes this wrong, self-defeating path.

in a way, 'liberation' is the dangerous idealogy that harms impoverished people by mis-directing energy into the spiritual realm at best or against the white man at worst but it is just a symptom of a very positive aspect... a fanatical seeking of meaning that occurs when people suffer under that bizarre combination of poverty and decadence that exists in the ghettos.

i contend that the majority of poor people truly want to succeed except they are offered three paths... idealogy, which can just turn them into bitter or 'spirtual' but impractical people... gangsterism which turns them into drug dealers... or the 'white' path of working hard legitimately, going to college, etc.

as for slavery and immigration and organizations... those are irrelevent. What can Amer-I-Can do when a situation was developed centuries ago that placed certain people behind others?

I know i am arguing a paradox where ultimately it is the individual who determines his success or failure in life but society (or rather, a certain culture in society) can greatly influence this. poverty is not caused by economics but by culture.

[Japher]

in a way, 'liberation' is the dangerous idealogy that harms impoverished people by mis-directing energy into the spiritual realm at best or against the white man at worst but it is just a symptom of a very positive aspect... a fanatical seeking of meaning that occurs when people suffer under that bizarre combination of poverty and decadence that exists in the ghettos.

Nice

i contend that the majority of poor people truly want to succeed except they are offered three paths... idealogy, which can just turn them into bitter or 'spirtual' but impractical people... gangsterism which turns them into drug dealers... or the 'white' path of working hard legitimately, going to college, etc.

That last path, however, turns them into "sell-outs" or someother word that attempts to ostrasize them, as though the turned their back on their culture and society no longer making them worthy of their company. It's that kind of cultural suppresion that fears me.

I know i am arguing a paradox where ultimately it is the individual who determines his success or failure in life but society (or rather, a certain culture in society) can greatly influence this. poverty is not caused by economics but by culture.

I totally agree... Trip is very good at pointing out the obsticles, but I don't think what he has shown is a reason. Che, however, tries.

Japher, there's a third part of the equation you're missing, and that's opportunity. It is much more difficult for someone from a poverty-background to find or make opportunities to succeed. Even then, they are at a disadvantage against those who do not face such adversities. Even if you bust your ass and excell, you might be denied because of the way you look, the way you speak, etc.

You have to make the team before you can wear the uniform. If you can't walk the walk, and you can't talk the talk, then of course you will not get the position. If you bust your ass you will learn both these things without even trying.

This can lead to bitterness and hopelessness. And others who see this will get the message. If you aren't allowed to succeed, why try? There isn't, and has never been, a glass ceiling. What there is, is a glass seive. Some can get out, most never will, no matter how hard they try, now matter how qualified they are.

Nice analogy there. I will concur that it is most likely true in some cases, but not all. The elitist seive does exist, I have seen it, and I am not one to even bother trying to squeeze through it. However, I know that if I want to be in the position that eludes me there is a) someone else who can give me something similar or b) a way that I can create that position for myself. The problem I have with such presumptions is that it requires someone giving something to you. Is it fair, or even right, that someone is going to get something because of where they come from? Despite qualifications? No. Can it be overcome? Yes.

Environment, Nature, and Breeding... I can agree that these are obsticles, but are the reasons for failure? Do they make you fail?

I too would fight that shark with teeth and nails until I die. However, I never take a sword to a gun fight.

[Imran Siddiqui]

middle class trailer parks? anyone with a ****ing full-time job is middle class.

So someone working full time at McDonalds at the register is middle-class? Sorry, everyone I know would call them poor (ie, the working poor). Trailer parks? Only if you think the people that show up on Jerry Springer as middle class.... btw, they aren't!

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Japher
You said it; "Potential".

Those brought up by successful families have a tendency to be successful because that is what they feel they should do. On the contrary, those brought up under a government ceiling and collecting welfare for their whole, young lives will also see this as what they should do, as it is all the know.

With those surrounding them telling them that there is noting else for them, that they are being oppressed for whatever reason, that they just aren't good enough, etc... it is no wonder that the classes are moving further and further from each other. You say it enough times it will become true.

This is a sociatal problem, not an individual problem.

Still, I have seen, and know people who are born stubborn. Despite having parents that are push overs and being from a neighborhood that takes much more than it gives these people learn the value of hard work, and acquire the skills to make it work for them.

IMO, by addressing only the enviornment in which a person exits you (Trip) seem to be dismissing the other behavioral factor; nature.

People are people not only because of where they come from, but because of who they are. What they desire, what they feel, and how they are going to obtain that. This is not always given to a person by their environment. If that were the case we wouldn't have rags to riches stories or stories of yuppie kids offing their classmates in suburbia. Everyone has problems, and they aren't always due to their surroundings. All a person needs to do is recognize the problem, so that they can begin to address it.

Speer has seen his problem, and that is his environment. Whereas most other people would address it by abusing it, Speer has chosen avoid it, to learn from it, and to change himself such that he no longer has to stay in it. You telling him, or anyone else from a less than middle class environment that they are poor because they live amongst the poor is just as bad as telling someone they are stupid because they go to a bad school. Sometimes, Trip, the motivation has to be sought out, or it has to come from within, nothing comes without effort.

Poor is lazy, or poor is not caring, or poor is ignorance... You are right, poor is lack of motivation. You can lead a horse to water...

For the most part I agree.

However, as you said, motivation is something that is both developed within a person's character and as a result of their environment. You can't (and I'm not trying to) blame it solely on one or the other.

I'm not claiming that nobody has a chance to escape the cycle, but the odds are against them. A highly motivated person simply by nature can escape with his own efforts. But these aren't your everyday people, which is why people born into poverty usually remain poor.

Why expect the poor to have to try harder than everyone else just to get to the status quo? That's like criticizing middle class people for not being millionaires because they're too lazy.

To put it plainly, we are a nation built on laziness.

[Japher]

Alright Trip, it just sounded like you were only blaming one side of the coin... I would blame the middle class for being lazy if they were to complain about not being millionares. Note: A million is not really worth what it was use to, many middle class people are also millionares.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Albert Speer
Trip:

yet people still succeed... people still take what was dealt them and succeed. one man succeeding is enough prove that people can succeed. we just need a culture that motivates children if their parents do not fulfill this obligation.

Yeah, but that's the problem... a lot of the parents of those who need the most parenting don't care. It is indeed a problem with society.

that culture is, of course, a conservative culture that despises teenage sex, drug use, etc. and stresses material gain and hard work.

this culture, however, often becomes twisted, something which i think is the major cultural problem associated with poverty, more so than 'gangsterism'. prisons are abundant with crackpot, even racist, ideas, the result of prisons being filled with men seeking meaning... have you ever bought and mailed books that someone you know in jail asked you to buy? books about the end of days and the destruction of black civilization... books with titles like "From ******s to Gods"

this seeking of meaning is great and it exists in the minds and hearts of every poor person (i do not see the majority of us as being conditioned blind, deaf, and dumb by ineffective parents as much as you do)... the problem is this yearning for meaning often translates to susceptibility to embrace stupidity. Five Percenterism, African Liberation groups, etc. are immensely popular among the talented majority that truly strives but takes this wrong, self-defeating path.

in a way, 'liberation' is the dangerous idealogy that harms impoverished people by mis-directing energy into the spiritual realm at best or against the white man at worst but it is just a symptom of a very positive aspect... a fanatical seeking of meaning that occurs when people suffer under that bizarre combination of poverty and decadence that exists in the ghettos.

i contend that the majority of poor people truly want to succeed except they are offered three paths... idealogy, which can just turn them into bitter or 'spirtual' but impractical people... gangsterism which turns them into drug dealers... or the 'white' path of working hard legitimately, going to college, etc.

as for slavery and immigration and organizations... those are irrelevent. What can Amer-I-Can do when a situation was developed centuries ago that placed certain people behind others?

I know i am arguing a paradox where ultimately it is the individual who determines his success or failure in life but society (or rather, a certain culture in society) can greatly influence this. poverty is not caused by economics but by culture.

I agree.

I'm simply arguing that we can and should not place the blame solely on the shoulders of those who are at the bottom. Yes, if they were super motivated (and have a little luck with opportunities, as Che said) then they could pull it and rejoin the rest of mainstream society. But that requires a special sort of individual to overcome these kinds of obstacles. It does happen, and big kudos for those who do.

[chequita guevara]

Conservatives like to blame the victim.

[Jon Shafer]

Originally posted by Japher
Alright Trip, it just sounded like you were only blaming one side of the coin... I would blame the middle class for being lazy if they were to complain about not being millionares. Note: A million is not really worth what it was use to, many middle class people are also millionares.

As I just said in response to AS, I'm just arguing against the mentality some people (no one in particular) believe that the poor are poor simply because they're lazy and if they got off their arses and out of welfare and got a job then everything would be all better. The situation is much more complicated than that, and in many cases, yes, part of the blame should be on the shoulders of those stuck in the system. But it's still a system and doesn't let go of its members easily...

[Japher]

Liberals like to blame the conservatives.

[chequita guevara]

Originally posted by Japher
Liberals like to blame the conservatives.

That's because it's your fault.