Rugby - Swinging Handbags!

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No surprises in the Wallaby 27-man squad. Brumbies' lock Mark Chisholm, wingers Mark Gerrard and Clyde Rathbone, prop Nic Henderson and Radike Samo all get spots. Now we wait to see whether Samo will still go to Newcastle. Matt Burke has made the squad despite being dropped by the Waratahs, probably as back up with Stirling Mortlock missing.

[Havak]

S12's whole design - bonus points, et al - means it will always be what it is: a try festival.

And yet the Zurich Premiership adopted the same system and some of the defences are much closer to test level (not all by any means – but most). I have a suspicion it is more of a reflection of lack of strength in depth with the S12 forwards?

As for raising the profile I agree it’s a fine thing. Particularly in the land dominated by the other code.

Trouble is, as ever, we have a plethora of talented backs. I won't bother detailing the converse.

England are the converse of course.

I can see Henry playing him in front of Carlos.

Seems likely. I wonder if he does if Carlos will change his mind about us. I think we could use his strengths as he would have a powerful pack to lurk behind.

A one-handed steal from J**** would be fun to see.

For you perhaps.

Andrew likes to mix up where he plays his huge Islanders – He has Epi Taione on the books and plays him at flanker and wing. And of course Inga Tuigamala was on Falcons books until his retirement.

Canon isn't the greatest hooker in rugby history, but he's wholehearted, where Paul can go missing.

Added to which Canon is Australian.

Or he might drop down a level. He's serious about his studies.

Hard to see that – no First Division side could afford him unless he was really prepared to take a step down the salary scale. I bet the Oxford coach is licking his lips however.

So we're once more in line for months of denial and self-delusion?

Witness the posts above?

Chris Latham can always brief them on the finer points of breaking a signed contract with a NH club.

Ah yes – I don’t think Chris should expect a welcome in the Emerald Isle anytime soon. Rob Andrew is unlikely to meekly accept a screw job – he’ll come after the ARU if they end-run him. And given the way Samo’s agent has spoken so far do you trust him to have negotiated a contract with an easy and legal ‘out’?

The victory of the Wasps can largely been compared to a theft...

Oh I prefer to think of it as them looking after Tigers trophy for a while rather than having stolen it.
If you meant they stole it from Toulouse - it’s very difficult to see three tries to one as theft somehow.

A few years ago the French players were flying away to England because of the higher salaries... hospital mocking charity.

Ah this old chestnut – what players and where did they go? There was an influx to Gloucester when Saint-Andre was coach – but that was nothing to do with money. He was simply assembling his old mates.

Castaignede is the only big money move I can think of – and possibly Ibanez (although his career was winding down when he came). Both went to Sarries – and there are rumours Sarries get creative with the salary cap so there may be some trurth in what you are saying. It doesn’t really compare to the way French sides are signing up the cream of NH and SH talent right now? Remind me where CauCau went again? The Kiwis were hoping they could naturalise him.

which means no H-Cup next year.

Unthinkable! Kick their behinds and make them beat Biarritz!

Interesting Wallaby squad – Eddie on collision course with Newcastle it seem. Matt Burke is up here with the Barbarians and meeting with clubs. The tri-nations will coincide with early pre-season training here if it runs into mid july? dilemma time!?

Of course he could sign for a club and then wriggle out of it – it seems the Aussie vogue right now?

*edit* I forgot about Brouzet going to Saints four years ago. Mind you he was highly over rated anyway - and went back to France in 2002 anyway.

[Havak]

And another bit of news - Clive has had to name a very inexperienced side for the Barbarians match this weekend. He cannot pick any players from Bath, Wasps, Tigers and Sale because all are involved in finals on Saturday.

It's a young raw team (with too much Glaws) and could have a rough ride against Randell's boys.

*edit*

And the predictions it would get messy bear fruit quickly.

Excuse me whilst I sob for poor poor Eddie.

Eddie Jones: “The lure of the pound and the various sorts of tax schemes they have in place in England always makes it hard to keep players," he added.
"That is the problem we face all the time. To match the market value of the players in Europe is very difficult.”

The ARU's offer to Samo does not match Newcastle's financial package, but Eddie hopes the prospect of playing for Australia will persuade him to stay in the country.

And on the contract:

Eddie: "If he is not legally bound to Newcastle, we will continue negotiations to try and get him signed up in Australia. We want him to play for Australia and he has indicated he wants to play for the Wallabies."

Samo: Asked whether he had signed a letter of intent or a full contract with Newcastle, said: "Yeah, letter of intent. I don't know how binding it is. I am pretty happy at the moment but I can't say anything about it. I would like to stay for one more year or two, but I don't know what's going to happen. We'll just have to wait and see."

Rob Andrew: “Radike's agreement to join us is binding, and we look forward to seeing him at Kingston Park for next season. Whichever avenue Radike wishes to go down in pursuing his international career is a purely personal decision, to which the club does not intend having any input. Whether he chooses Fiji or Australia is up to him. At no stage has there been any indication from either the player or his representatives that he does not intend to honour his agreement with Newcastle.”

So at the very least the lad has been rather silly I would say. He should never have signed a contract until he was absolutely sure he wanted to move. And Jolly good luck to his lawyer if he intends to argue the letter of intent point – I think Latham killed that particular loophole.

It’s very unlikely that Falcons will try to force an unwilling player to join them – but as I said Rob Andrew is likely to take this very personally. Giving your word still means something in our setup – a throwback to the amateur days if you like. It’s likely Samo may be sued for breach of contract if he doesn’t join.

On a wider note how will Australia retain any fringe players at all if a UK club contract can earn more than a Wallaby deal? The French clubs will smell blood and start to hoover up the Aussie fringe!

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Originally posted by Havak
And yet the Zurich Premiership adopted the same system and some of the defences are much closer to test level (not all by any means – but most). I have a suspicion it is more of a reflection of lack of strength in depth with the S12 forwards?

All part of the same mix, I think. S12 isn't forward-oriented, it was designed to be a spectacle.

Seems likely. I wonder if he does if Carlos will change his mind about us. I think we could use his strengths as he would have a powerful pack to lurk behind.

We'll have to keep an eye on next week's AB trial. Mehrtens will, presumably, come off the bench for Carlos at some point in the game.

Hard to see that – no First Division side could afford him unless he was really prepared to take a step down the salary scale. I bet the Oxford coach is licking his lips however.

There's been no talk of his plans, so we'll have to wait and see.

And given the way Samo’s agent has spoken so far do you trust him to have negotiated a contract with an easy and legal ‘out’?

I've never heard of his agent, I don't know how experienced he is. Who knows at this stage?

Interesting Wallaby squad – Eddie on collision course with Newcastle it seem. Matt Burke is up here with the Barbarians and meeting with clubs. The tri-nations will coincide with early pre-season training here if it runs into mid july? dilemma time!?

Burke's only in there because of the Mortlock injury. I'd be surprised if he got a call up. I really don't know why they named him.

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Originally posted by Havak
And another bit of news - Clive has had to name a very inexperienced side for the Barbarians match this weekend. He cannot pick any players from Bath, Wasps, Tigers and Sale because all are involved in finals on Saturday.

It's a young raw team (with too much Glaws) and could have a rough ride against Randell's boys.

And with Owen Finegan running around with something to prove to Eddie.

Excuse me whilst I sob for poor poor Eddie.

Eddie Jones: “The lure of the pound and the various sorts of tax schemes they have in place in England always makes it hard to keep players," he added.
"That is the problem we face all the time. To match the market value of the players in Europe is very difficult.”

It's the same problem the Boks face, with their problems compounded by the buggered rand and poisonous internal Bok politics. But I recall it being said at some stage that the rivers of gold were drying up in the NH. Mmmm. That was before les grenouilles opened their purses, overcame the plethora of escaping moths, and started buying anything on two legs.

Eddie: "If he is not legally bound to Newcastle, we will continue negotiations to try and get him signed up in Australia. We want him to play for Australia and he has indicated he wants to play for the Wallabies."

Fair enough.

Samo: Asked whether he had signed a letter of intent or a full contract with Newcastle, said: "Yeah, letter of intent. I don't know how binding it is. I am pretty happy at the moment but I can't say anything about it. I would like to stay for one more year or two, but I don't know what's going to happen. We'll just have to wait and see."

Rob Andrew: “Radike's agreement to join us is binding, and we look forward to seeing him at Kingston Park for next season. Whichever avenue Radike wishes to go down in pursuing his international career is a purely personal decision, to which the club does not intend having any input. Whether he chooses Fiji or Australia is up to him. At no stage has there been any indication from either the player or his representatives that he does not intend to honour his agreement with Newcastle.”

So at the very least the lad has been rather silly I would say. He should never have signed a contract until he was absolutely sure he wanted to move. And Jolly good luck to his lawyer if he intends to argue the letter of intent point – I think Latham killed that particular loophole.

Yes, I pointed to the different versions last night. The manager was saying it was a signed contract. I agree with you - he has signed (whatever it is) in haste. To my mind, the manager's at fault. Unless the deal was done months ago, before Samo started producing the goods, it was clear that the player had a future here. Managers are paid to read these situations, and, as a matter of course, delay decisions until everything is crystal clear. As I said above, I've never heard of the manager, I don't know how experienced he is.

On a wider note how will Australia retain any fringe players at all if a UK club contract can earn more than a Wallaby deal? The French clubs will smell blood and start to hoover up the Aussie fringe!

France and England have been doing it for years. There's nothing we can do to stop it. BTW, how much would the average UK contract be worth? I won't bother asking about the French sums on offer. The zeros on the end would test the supposedly limitless infinity.

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Further to the Samo business, you were right the other night when you connected the S12 contract and Wallaby availability. I narrowly interpreted the S12 contract in terms of eligibility. It appears that Samo's S12 contract with the Brumbies ties him to the ARU - in terms of Wallaby availability - until the end of the year. So he could only play for either Newcastle or Fiji (or both) prior to the end of this year if the ARU were to release him. And they're not going to. He has chosen Wallabies in front of Fiji anyway, so the only real alternative - Newcastle - is off the agenda until next year. One wonders whether either Samo, his manager, and even Newcastle were aware of this. If not, they should have been.

[Havak]

I’m no fan of Newcastle as you well know – it bothers me not at all that they lose a player - but no fault is attached to them here that I can see. It’s the ARU and it business practices at fault coupled with an extremely naieve agent and player. Falcons signed Samo in good faith and I suspect have excellent grounds under UK law to sue both player and the ARU (if the ARU are directly preventing the player honouring the contract).

I find it intriguing that for all the faults UK rugby has this simply could not have happened here. Contracts have to be ‘fair and reasonable’ under UK law and ‘restraint of trade’ is illegal under European law – the Aussie contracts boof out on both criteria surely (keeping a player handcuffed four months after the domestic season ends)? So the contract was certainly signed under UK law – the player can certainly be pursued under UK law – not sure how they would get the ARU (though I wish them every success for amusement value alone).

I guess Tigers are just lucky we have always dealt with Kiwis and Aussies that have not been contracted to the associated Union and it’s lawyers when they joined us. Or perhaps you yourself think Samo and the ARU are coming out of this smelling of roses?

In other news Burke has been linked with Worcester. More trouble here perhaps as they will want him by the end of July – and Eddie may not like that if he is still needed for ‘cover’?

Finny is with the barbarians? My that will be interesting. He has enough red rage problems when facing men – what is he going to do to a team of boys?

I saw figures for the average premiership salary last year that were around £45K IIRC. We can do a basic sum to estimate it – a salary cap of 2.2 million and a squad of 40 senior players gives an average expected salary of £55K. Of course the salaries are not even across the squad but it gives you an idea. I’m not sure what the tax breaks Eddie spoke of are but I do not doubt they exist. The other thing is of course that a foreign signing can certainly expect a salary boost from ‘promotional’ work – this is the grey area that sometimes cast doubts on our Salary caps.

If we pick a big French side – and say the wage bill is 4.5 million with again 40 Pros on the books you get an average of £112K. Given that they still get Promotional income on top of that you can see how the ARU might have no chance – and UK clubs would struggle – to retain players being courted unless they have strong reasons to stay.

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Originally posted by Havak
I’m no fan of Newcastle as you well know – it bothers me not at all that they lose a player - but no fault is attached to them here that I can see.

I don't think Newcastle are at fault in any way. Except, perhaps, if they didn't check out the contract situation.

It’s the ARU and it business practices at fault coupled with an extremely naieve agent and player. Falcons signed Samo in good faith and I suspect have excellent grounds under UK law to sue both player and the ARU (if the ARU are directly preventing the player honouring the contract).

Why are the ARU at fault for enforcing a legal contract?

I find it intriguing that for all the faults UK rugby has this simply could not have happened here. Contracts have to be ‘fair and reasonable’ under UK law and ‘restraint of trade’ is illegal under European law – the Aussie contracts boof out on both criteria surely (keeping a player handcuffed four months after the domestic season ends)?

There's nothing unfair or unreasonable about the ARU contract. The contract doesn't apply only to the domestic season. Here, there is, arguably, more rugby played outside the domestic season than within it. Tours to the NH? Cripes, if a player were only contracted for our domestic season, it would be a six months contract.

So the contract was certainly signed under UK law – the player can certainly be pursued under UK law – not sure how they would get the ARU (though I wish them every success for amusement value alone).

They probably have a case against Samo and/or the agent. Depending on what exactly was signed.

I guess Tigers are just lucky we have always dealt with Kiwis and Aussies that have not been contracted to the associated Union and it’s lawyers when they joined us.

You've obviously dealt with players out of contract.

Or perhaps you yourself think Samo and the ARU are coming out of this smelling of roses?

Trouble is, we don't know exactly what was signed. That aside, Samo and his manager were naieve. The ARU is perfectly within its legal rights. Why have contracts otherwise?

In other news Burke has been linked with Worcester. More trouble here perhaps as they will want him by the end of July – and Eddie may not like that if he is still needed for ‘cover’?

It's a squad of 27, and I honestly don't know why he's in there. We have plenty of cover for the places he's covering - full back, outside centre, goal kicking. Worcester? Must be the money they had earmarked for Larkham? (Another contractual case in point. Larkham was out of contract with everyone - Brumbies and ARU. He was available for signing)

Finny is with the barbarians? My that will be interesting. He has enough red rage problems when facing men – what is he going to do to a team of boys?

I'm sure Owen will enjoy himself immensely. I don't know whether you saw his prank with the ref in the S12 final. The Brumbies earned a penalty within kicking distance. Owen pointed to the side line and told the ref the Brumbies would have a shot. It took the ref and Joe Roff - the kicker - twenty seconds to work out the joke.

I saw figures for the average premiership salary last year that were around £45K IIRC. We can do a basic sum to estimate it – a salary cap of 2.2 million and a squad of 40 senior players gives an average expected salary of £55K. Of course the salaries are not even across the squad but it gives you an idea. I’m not sure what the tax breaks Eddie spoke of are but I do not doubt they exist. The other thing is of course that a foreign signing can certainly expect a salary boost from ‘promotional’ work – this is the grey area that sometimes cast doubts on our Salary caps.

Yes, I think we actually did this equation once before. S12 rates and yours - without "promotional work" - roughly equate. It's the "promotional work" that obviously makes it so lucrative. Your money is very attractive to a lot of our players who are either fringe or lower-level S12 earners, and a lot of them are over there. The only "promotional work" here is strictly for Wallabies. In fact, I've often wondered how much of the "promotional work" is part of their contracts and how much is extra income.

If we pick a big French side – and say the wage bill is 4.5 million with again 40 Pros on the books you get an average of £112K. Given that they still get Promotional income on top of that you can see how the ARU might have no chance – and UK clubs would struggle – to retain players being courted unless they have strong reasons to stay.

That's right. Interestingly, thus far, the only Australian players the big-spending French have lured have been fringe players and/or superannuation seekers. The genuine lure of Wallaby (or England) jerseys will always overcome the pots of gold, I suspect. Samo excepted.

On an unrelated matter. I bought the DVD of Brian Wilson's "Pet Sounds" concert(s) at the Royal Albert Hall. Stunning stuff. The band he put together is quite extraordinary. He toured out here with the same band last year. I saw the early promotion for the tour and made a mental note to get tickets. I didn't hear another word until I read the review of the concert! One of my heroes, Brian Wilson. Genius.

[Caligastia]

I'm off to London tomorrow for the weekend, so you won't hear from me till Tuesday or so. Hopefully this thread will last till then.

[Caligastia]

I'll be doing a pub crawl on saturday, so I might be able to catch the Baa-baas game.

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Originally posted by Caligastia
I'll be doing a pub crawl on saturday, so I might be able to catch the Baa-baas game.

Goodoh. Report back on Owen Finegan monstering the England In Nappies team, please.

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Originally posted by Tamerlin
Allez, le Stade!
Allez, Toulouse!

Hey Tamerlin. You might like to edit this post. It only draws attention to the, um, embarrassment.

[Caligastia]

Originally posted by finbar


Goodoh. Report back on Owen Finegan monstering the England In Nappies team, please.

Will do. I take it the match isn't available over there?

[finbar]

Nuh. All we get of NH matches - outside our Tests - are replays of some HC matches delayed a couple of weeks. Time for a dedicated Rugby Channel!

[ravagon]

Originally posted by Caligastia
I'll be doing a pub crawl on saturday, so I might be able to catch the Baa-baas game.

Oy.

For your sake I hope you don't catch it.
*ahem*

http://www.planetrugby.com/Teams/Wales/story_36395.shtml

Well, that's what you get when you sub a Kiwi for a Frenchman.