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  • #436
    Originally posted by PLATO


    Is Spain saying that they will now trust their own security to the UN? Will they not deploy beyond their boarders in self defense unless mandated by the UN? Does P.S.O.E. have the 1st clue on foriegn policy? Inquiring minds want to know...
    Oh, the anti-UN trolls are back..I missed them.
    If you don't like reality, change it! me
    "Oh no! I am bested!" Drake
    "it is dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire
    "Patriotism is a pernecious, psychopathic form of idiocy" George Bernard Shaw

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    • #437
      Originally posted by Sava
      I agree there were other issues that caused Aznar to get the boot... but the national security failure that led to the bombings (and the preceding provocation) was the straw that broke the camel's back.
      National security failure? What are you? Stupid? Nobody could of stopped the attacks. The Spanish police and Civil Guard are prepared for bombs and terrorism and have been for many years. It was just logistically impossible to have cops in every single place of the country and in every soft target. So please spare me the bull****.
      For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

      Comment

      • #438
        Originally posted by Spiffor

        To think the attack was the only issue on which the Spaniards voted is an insult to them. Like every other people in a democracy, they voted on other things.
        With PP polling ahead of PSOE before the bombings, then one could assume that this issue was the swing issue. If it was, then AQ acting most certainly influenced the election. Is that a bad thing in and of itself? No. The problem I have comes with the proximity of the election to the bombing. An emotional vote may have well been reconsidered after time for reflection. Obviously, with PP leading in the polls, the other issues were on their side pre-bombing.
        "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

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        • #439
          Originally posted by PLATO


          With PP polling ahead of PSOE before the bombings, then one could assume that this issue was the swing issue. If it was, then AQ acting most certainly influenced the election. Is that a bad thing in and of itself? No. The problem I have comes with the proximity of the election to the bombing. An emotional vote may have well been reconsidered after time for reflection. Obviously, with PP leading in the polls, the other issues were on their side pre-bombing.
          Howard Dean was polling ahead in Iowa before the voting... polls don't mean ****.
          To us, it is the BEAST.

          Comment

          • #440
            Originally posted by GePap


            Oh, the anti-UN trolls are back..I missed them.
            Me too.
            (Obviously )
            "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

            Comment

            • #441
              Originally posted by Sava
              Howard Dean was polling ahead in Iowa before the voting... polls don't mean ****.
              In some incidences you are correct, but Sava, you know that they usually have merit.
              "I am sick and tired of people who say that if you debate and you disagree with this administration somehow you're not patriotic. We should stand up and say we are Americans and we have a right to debate and disagree with any administration." - Hillary Clinton, 2003

              Comment

              • #442
                Originally posted by GePap


                Oh, the anti-UN trolls are back..I missed them.
                Well GePap- you have to agree- Bushbaby didn't know diddly squat about foreign policy.

                You have to assume that a Spanish Socialist is going to be of the same stamp as an American Republican- after all, the similarities are so striking.
                Vive la liberte. Noor Inayat Khan, Dachau.

                ...patriotism is not enough. I must have no hatred or bitterness towards anyone. Edith Cavell, 1915

                Comment

                • #443
                  Re: Re: Re: Re: Socialist claim victory in Spain

                  Originally posted by OliverFA
                  Well... for starting he is going to retire Spanish troops from Irak.

                  Later, he will continue aligning with France and Germany to criticize Mr. Bush for everything he does.

                  I hope Blair can make he change her mind, but I doubt.
                  Well, this has nothing to do with fighting terrorism, so I fail to see what this is doing here.

                  He will stop fighting the root of terrorism, so terrorism is in better condition now.

                  What do you call "fighting the root of terrorism?". Since it is obvious the brutal secular regime of Iraq wasn't the root of Muslim terrorism, what did Aznar do to fight the roots of terrorism, that Zapatero won't do?

                  And coward Spanish will suffer the loss of liberty of increased security measures

                  Such a reaction is something I would expect from any government after such an attack. Do you think the PP wouldn't have put these security measures in place?

                  It´s impossible to protect everything. Supermarkets, football stadiums, buses, cinemas, schools...

                  Indeed. But then again, what is the difference between Zapatero and Aznar in this regard?
                  "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                  "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                  "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                  Comment

                  • #444
                    Originally posted by Spiffor
                    it is pretty stupid to say this attack was Aznar's fault, or the next attack will be Zapatero's fault (as I expect you and OliverFa to say when it'll happen).
                    It will be funny to have things to blame Zapatero for (I mean, even more things that the improper way in which he has arrived to the governement).

                    But of course, if there is a new attack, Zapatero will not be responsible of the attack itself, but of not attacking terrorism at its root.

                    You can say that Aznar is "responsible" for the attack in one way. Is his government hadn´t pursued terrorism so effectively, the target would have been another government. Spain would have passed not detected by terrorism. But this would have been something temporal, because at the end, when(if) the big countries fall the small ones will follow. Spain has choosen to follow the path of the allies in the years just before the Second World War, when they thought they could make Hitler content with some concesions.
                    "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                    "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                    Comment

                    • #445
                      Originally posted by PLATO
                      In some incidences you are correct, but Sava, you know that they usually have merit.
                      I know when I'm being stupid and when I'm not
                      To us, it is the BEAST.

                      Comment

                      • #446
                        Originally posted by Giancarlo
                        Supermajority? Laughable. 9 million still voted for the PP and they are going to be the unhappy ones.
                        9,5 in fact. The PP just lost a bit more than 0,5 millions of votes. It was the PSOE who won 3 more millions (all that people who decided to vote). So "the people" have not been supermajority against the PP.
                        "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                        "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                        Comment

                        • #447
                          Originally posted by PLATO
                          With PP polling ahead of PSOE before the bombings, then one could assume that this issue was the swing issue. If it was, then AQ acting most certainly influenced the election. Is that a bad thing in and of itself? No. The problem I have comes with the proximity of the election to the bombing. An emotional vote may have well been reconsidered after time for reflection. Obviously, with PP leading in the polls, the other issues were on their side pre-bombing.
                          Sava's answer is good, but since I wrote something about it back in page 11...

                          Originally posted by Spiffor

                          This is the fallacy you conservatoves are convinced of. If anything, Spain has shown us yesterday evening that their polls are usually inaccurate: the opinion polls conducted on election day didn't give us a clear picture (two polls believed the PP won, one poll believed the PSOE won), and we could have no definitive answer of the winner at 20:00.
                          So, how can you assert "the people were set to reelect the PP"? Based on the oh-so-trustworthy polls that show a tiny difference one week ago?
                          I wouldn't build an arguments solely a grounds as shaky as last week's polls. Really.
                          "I have been reading up on the universe and have come to the conclusion that the universe is a good thing." -- Dissident
                          "I never had the need to have a boner." -- Dissident
                          "I have never cut off my penis when I was upset over a girl." -- Dis

                          Comment

                          • #448
                            Originally posted by Sava
                            I know when I'm being stupid and when I'm not
                            Oh good.. so how much of a percentage is it when you're being stupid.. 90%? 95%? 99.9%?

                            Well I'm late for class. Talk to you later.
                            For there is [another] kind of violence, slower but just as deadly, destructive as the shot or the bomb in the night. This is the violence of institutions -- indifference, inaction, and decay. This is the violence that afflicts the poor, that poisons relations between men because their skin has different colors. - Bobby Kennedy (Mindless Menance of Violence)

                            Comment

                            • #449
                              Originally posted by PLATO
                              there is some pretty compelling evidence that they are operating in Iraq NOW. Before the invasion is a different story as far as evidence, but post invasion is even now acknowledged by AQ that they are there. If Spain wants to take on AQ outside of their own boarders, then staying in Iraq is the thing to do. If they are making a post invasion political statement that they are willing to let the war come to them and fight on the homeland then the new government is spot on. Wonder if 80% would support that line of thought if it was presented to them?
                              They would say this is a lie invented by the right and support it. They would hope AQ went somewhere else before Spain and let that somewhere else fight the battle for them while they stay safe at home.
                              "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                              "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

                              Comment

                              • #450
                                Originally posted by Spiffor
                                To think the attack was the only issue on which the Spaniards voted is an insult to them. Like every other people in a democracy, they voted on other things.
                                Sure. That´s why results changed so unexpectedly.

                                Just look at Giancarlo and OliverFA here: they were going to vote PP prior to the attacks and they did. And I assume Jasev, Alfonso and others were decided to vote PSOE prior to the attacks as well.
                                You are partially right. People who had their vote decided didn´t change it. People who had decided not to vote o who were trying to decide did. That can be easily seen by the increase in the participation while PP has lost only 500,000 votes (that´s the "punishment"?) and the communists lost many votes who went to PSOE. But mainly what PSOE got was many votes of people who wouldn not have voted. So, we can like it or not, but terrorists changed the result.
                                "Never trust a man who puts your profit before his own profit." - Grand Nagus Zek, Star Trek Deep Space Nine, episode 11
                                "A communist is someone who has read Marx and Lenin. An anticommunist is someone who has understood Marx and Lenin." - Ronald Reagan (1911-2004)

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