The Passion rotten so far

[Ben Kenobi]

If atheists had tortured and slaughtered millions of people over the past 30-40 centuries we'd see religious folk hating atheists.

You forget Berz, that we are called to love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, who persecute us, as they do not know what they do.

Atheists are under no such constraints regarding Christians.

[Ben Kenobi]

to hypocritically force me to live my life in accordance with their beliefs

How so Berzerker? How are they forcing you to live your life in accordance with their beliefs?

Restrictions on drugs? That is not done because of religious beliefs, but rather the harms on society that the distribution of these drugs cause.

[Imran Siddiqui]

You forget Berz, that we are called to love our enemies, to bless those who curse us, who persecute us, as they do not know what they do.

You must agree, however, that many Christians in the past have not followed this decree.

[Ben Kenobi]

that many Christians in the past have not followed this decree.

True, but the fault lies in the people, not in the religion.

Atheists are under no constraints to love Christians, in the manner to which Christians are called to love Atheists.

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Berzerker
Jon -

Yes, there is an episode where some of the disciples are griping about the "special" relationship between Mary and Jesus and someone chastises them. Then there is the problem with Jesus being a priest who doesn't marry...marriage was a requirement for priests to pass along the line. One more point, Jesus attended a wedding at Cana and changed water into wine when it is brought to his attention that the wine is running out. After tasting Jesus' wine a guest comments how the groom usually serves the good stuff first and when everyone is drunk, then produces a second batch of wine that is inferior, but that the order was reversed. Why was Jesus supplying wine in the first place? That's the groom's duty! The only logical conclusion is that Jesus was the groom...

Why would the early gospel authors hide or ignore a possible marriage between Mary and Jesus? Maybe they didn't, maybe their text was edited by Paul and his group. Maybe Paul considered it inappropriate for Jesus to be married, especially if Paul was going to turn Jesus into a divine being. Maybe the authors themselves didn't want Mary to have more attention or relevance... Or maybe Jesus never married, but that leaves us with these problems...

the first person was Judas and it was about the perfume and feet

Jesus wasn't a preist according to the Jews

Jesus was asked to by His mother, the groom didn't provide enough wine and his mother asked Him to fix the situation

there are no problems but the ones you make up

Jon Miller

[Jon Miller]

Originally posted by Berzerker
As for atheists "hating" religious folk. C'mon, look at what religious folk have done and are still doing to others in the name of their religion. If atheists had tortured and slaughtered millions of people over the past 30-40 centuries we'd see religious folk hating atheists. Hell, atheists finally gained some power in the 20th century and started slaughtering people too...

pre early 20th century to be athiest was to be an idiot

athiesm as a reasonable choice is a modern phenomenum

Jon Miller

[Imran Siddiqui]

True, but the fault lies in the people, not in the religion.

Atheists are under no constraints to love Christians, in the manner to which Christians are called to love Atheists.

I can't understand how you place these two sentances side by side! Aren't atheists under social constraints to be nice to people?

Can't you say that the 'bigotted' atheists is a fault of the people, not the ideal?

[Ben Kenobi]

Aren't atheists under social constraints to be nice to people?

Are atheists, under their moral code specifically called to love their enemies?

No. You say they are compelled by society, and not by their own code to love people, and not specifically Christians.

Can't you say that the 'bigotted' atheists is a fault of the people, not the ideal?

Among Atheists? I would argue that the ideal for Atheists is to reject all forms of Christianity, and to belittle believers.

[Imran Siddiqui]

Are atheists, under their moral code specifically called to love their enemies?

I'd imagine that many Christians in the past were not under their OWN moral code called to love their enemies. I bet Urban II did not love the Muslims.

Among Atheists? I would argue that the ideal for Atheists is to reject all forms of Christianity, and to belittle believers.

Then I guess you won't object to calling you a bigot .

Rejection of Christianity is fine and well, but I've only met a small few who 'belittle' believers.

[Ben Kenobi]

Then I guess you won't object to calling you a bigot .

You wouldn't be the first.

Rejection of Christianity is fine and well, but I've only met a small few who 'belittle' believers.

Why would you arouse their anger?

I'd imagine that many Christians in the past were not under their OWN moral code called to love their enemies.

But is their moral code that of Christianity? I would argue they were accomodating themselves and their own desires at the expense of Christianity. Again, some atheists may believe that they ought to do as they would be done by, but then we get into a better question.

What is their philosophical grounding for this position?

[MrFun]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


Yeah, and who's that?

Did you notice the operative words in my post, "after watching more reporting . . ."

I saw on a CNN report yesterday in which a guest speaker was referring to some of the same people who have criticized the Passion movie for its violence, when in the past, those same referred people gushed with praise for other, past violent, gory movies that had much less significant, meaningful messages than The Passion of Christ.

[Berzerker]

Jon -

the first person was Judas and it was about the perfume and feet

I believe it was Peter who was complaining about Mary's relationship with Jesus, or maybe he was the one who told the whiners to keep quiet and respect Jesus' decisions wrt who he favored. Jesus was seen kissing Mary and someone lamented how his affection for her was greater or different.

Jesus wasn't a preist according to the Jews

He was according to his followers or he wouldn't have had a following. John the Baptist said Jesus should have baptised him, not the other way around. Do non-priests baptise? No...

Jesus was asked to by His mother, the groom didn't provide enough wine and his mother asked Him to fix the situation

That is a violation of Jewish practice, the groom provides the wine, not the guests. This isn't like inviting some friends over and making a beer run because you didn't buy any beer. And then you'd have to explain why someone walked up to Jesus and acted as if he was the groom with that comment about how the groom usually offers the better wine at first and then brings out the lower quality wine.

there are no problems but the ones you make up

Or ignore.

[Ned]

Originally posted by Boris Godunov


You do realize that not believing in God is atheism, too, Ned? It doesn't have to entail a positive assertion that there is no god, it is simply the absense of belief in God. Welcome to atheism.

And this is categorically wrong. Most atheists, whether of the positive or negative variety, aren't religion-bashers. You're simply practicing your own bigotry by assuming this to be the case based on a small vocal minority. Again, Mr. Double Standard, why don't you judge Christians by the standards set by Falwell and Co.?



Atheism is built on a lack of belief in God, period. I don't hate religion, nor do any od the atheists I know. They may hate the evils perpetrated in the name of religion by some people, but they hate evils perpetrated by anyone.

Tell, me Ned: What do the major religions in their official dogma say about atheism? Any kind words about it in Christianity, Islam, Hinduism, Judaism, etc.? Once again, the Nedaverse sees fit to apply blatant double standards to satisfy its master's biased agenda.

Boris, a person who does not believe in God can be of two varieties:

1) a person who denies the exisitence of God; or

2) a person who agrees that there is no proof of God or not God and therefor who does not deny God's existence.

Definition 2) is better attributed to agnosticism, a doctrine that holds that humans are inherently incapable of "knowing" the right answer.

I am definitely of category 2. So, in one sense of the term, category 2, I am atheist. However, I have no animus whatsoever to religion and do not call people who believe in God fools or idiots or whatever. It is said, even by the religious, that a belief in God requires faith because God is inherently unknowable.

So my beef is with atheists of category one, those atheists who deny the existence of God. Because there is no possibility of knowing whether God exists based upon evidence or upon human understanding, this brand of atheism is based either upon faith or upon animus. Based solely on the statements of most atheists of category one, the answer to whether it is faith or animus is clear.

[Boris Godunov]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Among Atheists? I would argue that the ideal for Atheists is to reject all forms of Christianity, and to belittle believers.

I would argue you've now crossed into religious bigotry a la Ned.

The ideal for an Atheist is to reject all forms of superstition, period. Christianity doesn't get singled out, so we can cut the martyr complex here.

And "belittle believers?" Please. So does your rejection of all other creeds but Christianity mean you're belittling them? Are Jews required to belittle all faiths but their own?

Your creed says non-believers are wrong will spend eternity in hell. Mine says believers are just mistaken, but don't suffer any other consequences for it. Gee, which one is more tolerant of a differing opinion here?

Nothing about atheism itself promotes any sort of bigotry against religious belief. But I can find in almost every religious scripture dogma about how evil and rotten and damned non-believers are. So who do you think you're fooling?

[Ned]

Re: Re: Re: The Passion rotten so far

Originally posted by Sava
well sure... make a movie about Jesus and all the jesus freak morons will flock to it like flies to ****.

Boris, SEE!