philosophy about god

[Ned]

Originally posted by skywalker


So? You have yet to provide an OBJECTIVE definition of "perfect". I don't see how perfect necessarily equals infallibility.

Perfect implies no change is necessary, ever.

The laws of nature fit that definition.

[Snowflake]

Perfect: Lacking nothing essential to the whole; complete of its nature of kind.
Second College Edition
The American Heritage Dictionary

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by skywalker


NO! There is no paradox! He is omnipotent BEFORE he makes the decision, and is either omnipotent or not omnipotent AFTER the decision. That's like saying that a car can't be green, because you could paint it red.

No it is not a desicion he has to make, it is a state he has to be in. He has to be in one of the two states (can make it, or cannot make it) and neither means that he is omnipotent. That's like saying a traffic light has three states, red, green or yellow. But no matter which state it is in, it cannot be blue.

[Ben Kenobi]

In fact, "all-powerful" pretty much covers it.

A reference point is something we use to explain what something means. For example, if I were to explain what a dog was, to someone who had never seen a dog, I would have to use a variety of reference points to help him understand.

The same is with this concept of Omnipotence. What does it mean to be all-powerful?

[Ben Kenobi]

Perfect implies no change is necessary, ever.

The laws of nature fit that definition.

And scientific theories do not. Science throws out a theory when it does not work, and accepts the label that none of our theories are perfect.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ned


Perfect implies no change is necessary, ever.

The laws of nature fit that definition.

I would say wrong on both counts (perfection in one situation is not perfection in another), but it is sufficient to show that the second claim is purely subjective. How is it that the laws of nature don't "need" any change?

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi


A reference point is something we use to explain what something means. For example, if I were to explain what a dog was, to someone who had never seen a dog, I would have to use a variety of reference points to help him understand.

The same is with this concept of Omnipotence. What does it mean to be all-powerful?

To have all powers

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
And scientific theories do not. Science throws out a theory when it does not work, and accepts the label that none of our theories are perfect.

He's talking about the actual natural laws, not the theorized natural laws.

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by HongHu
No it is not a desicion he has to make, it is a state he has to be in. He has to be in one of the two states (can make it, or cannot make it) and neither means that he is omnipotent. That's like saying a traffic light has three states, red, green or yellow. But no matter which state it is in, it cannot be blue.

So? Wait... are you trying to argue that determinism invalidates free will? Because that's the only context in which your argument seems to make sense...

[Ben Kenobi]

Why? I cannot recall anywhere in the bible that hints about this.

UR:

Good question, what does the bible say about the omnipotence of God?

Genesis 17:1

"When Abram was ninety-nine years old, the LORD appeared to him and said, "I am God Almighty; walk before me and be blameless."


Numbers 11:21-3

But Moses said, "Here I am among six hundred thousand men on foot, and you say, 'I will give them meat to eat for a whole month!' Would they have enough if flocks and herds were slaughtered for them? Would they have enough if all the fish in the sea were caught for them?"

The LORD answered Moses, "Is the LORD's arm too short? You will now see whether or not what I say will come true for you."

Matthew 11:25-6

"When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, "Who then can be saved?"

Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."

Heck, you have my old sig from just before MLK day.

Luke 1:36-7

"Even Elizabeth your relative is going to have a child in her old age, and she who was said to be barren is in her sixth month. For nothing is impossible with God."

Regarding God's self-sufficiency:

Where does the name, YWHW come from?

In Hebrew, it means, I am who I am.

(Ex. 3:14-15).

"and He said, thus you shall say to the sons of Israel, I AM has sent me to you... this is My eternal name, and this is how I am to be recalled for all generations."

What does this reveal about God? That he is eternal, for sure. He always is, he is never was, and never to come.

It also reveals that God is self-existent. No one created God, God alone is self-existent. He always existed. There was never one instant when He did not exist. He has no beginning and no end, in contrast to all other created things who originated somewhere at sometime.

Also, from John 5:26

"For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. "

What does Jesus mean when he says that the Father has life in himself? By this life, men do not have by themselves, they require the gift from God. God, does not need such a gift, instead, it is just as much a part of him, as any other quality.

Now, I am not a theologian, or a priest, and I am sure they will be able to answer your questions much better than I. However, the bible does proclaim both the self-sufficiency and omnipotence of God.

[Ben Kenobi]

To have all powers

Cross off theologian on your list of careers.

[curtsibling]

Theology is just that.

What bearing does it have on the real state of humanity, Ben?

[Ben Kenobi]

Wait... are you trying to argue that determinism invalidates free will?

Getting to that, young skywalker.

If you can chop something into little pieces that can be precisely defined, or if you can predict how everything works, you have no free will whatsover. All that you do would then be the result of your genes, or factors outside of your own control.

He's talking about the actual natural laws, not the theorized natural laws.

Distinction needs to be clarified.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well the truth is that we might not need him in our lives at all, but it is better for the peace of mind to believe in him anyway, for this way we could be a little bit more sure about that unpredicatable fate.

HongHu:

People have tried, and continue to try to fill this gap. If we do not need him at all, why do we need to believe in him?

What bearing does it have on the real state of humanity, Ben?

Curtsibling:

In a deterministic universe, you would see man as a machine. Now, would it not be in the best interests of the world to figure out how to run these machines as efficiently as possible? Now, what theology does, is that it asks one question. If we are machines, where is the manual?

And that, is how theology, applies to the real world.

[Ben Kenobi]

Then again, I guess an omnipotent being could just change the laws of gravity to lift anything he likes.

Saves me the trouble of writing.