philosophy about god

[Kuciwalker]

I posted this in the Jesus' forgiveness thread, but no one responded to it (it was pretty far OT), so I think it deserves its own thread:

Well, personally I like this quote:

"Some would ask, how could a perfect God create a universe filled with so much that is evil. They have missed a greater conundrum: why would a perfect God create a universe at all?" - Sister Miriam Godwinson, "But for the Grace of God"



Despite the fact that it's from SMAC, it brings up an interesting point: if God is omnipotent, he essentially defines reality. Now let's see what this would mean if, say, I had this power (just to remove religious dogma from this):

First, I could easily get rid of the suffering of every human being ever to live. I see how that would be a good thing. Well, wouldn't I be doing a good thing to make sure no baby had ever been stillborn or aborted, and instead lived happy, blissful lives? Seems so. You know what, how about I give all of those potential people, who could have been conceived but weren't? I'll stick them in too. Actually, I'll start adding even MORE people, and giving them good lives too. Even better! I think to make the maximum possible goodness, I'll create an INFINITE number of people, all with happy lives. And I'll give them free will, sure, but I'll create each and every one of them with enough "conscience" so that they never actually decide to "sin". Yay!

Bo-ring. What's the point?

Now, obviously, if I created a world like we had now, I'd be "evil". I mean, how can anyone but I be responsible for plagues and natural disasters - I created the world such that they would occur. Have I not "sinned" more than anyone, caused more pain and suffering than every human combined? All as some petty spite for them eating an apple from a tree? If the police did something like that, I'm sure most people here would definately call it abuse. It's like selling drugs on the street in order to catch drug users.

Obviously, our sense of "morals" could not in the least apply to an omnipotent being, because the ultimate result of that is utter pointlessness. Frankly, I'd rather live in a world with conflict than one without. It would be frighteningly dull without it. Just like when you play Risk - the objective is to conquer the world, but you don't keep playing afterwards, do you?

Note: I'm still an atheist, I'm just thinking about the implications of omnipotence.

[Agathon]

When I've had ten pints, I'm omniimpotent.

[Spiffor]

IIUC, Ben Kenobi posted somewhere that some theologians argued that God could only be omnipotent, because his powers are can only be as high as our human minds can fathom, not lower.

BK then argues that God willingly limits his powers of controlling mankind, by granting it free will. This means, our free will doesn't mean he's not omnipotent, only that he refrains for using all his power.

I think it is a valid theological position.

But this also means, God is a construct whose power is limited by the human brain. In other words, God is a product of our imagination.
Sounds a VERY valid theological position to me

[Kuciwalker]

I don't dispute that God could refrain from using his power. I'm just saying that applying morality to it doesn't really make much sense, because he could have made the same restrictions on his power but create a better universe.

[The Andy-Man]

but who said god was a nice guy in the first place?

[Snowflake]

Well the god created light, air and water, sky and land, fish and bird and other animals, then he thought, hmmm how about we create a new kind, with the form of me and an ability of thought, see what they can do. So he created human. Of course he could have calculated that given all the conditions what an evil world he would be creating, but what is the fun of that?

So he created, and observes, and helps a little here and there. But most of the time he simply observes. You know when a child who is learning to walk falls you don't always go pick him up even if you know that it might hurt a little. But you are doing a good thing for him for you know he'll eventually learn not to fall. Some people never learn how to walk properly is entirely another matter.

[Ben Kenobi]

God is a construct whose power is limited by the human brain. In other words, God is a product of our imagination.

Our perceptions of God are always limited by our own understanding, thus while we can imagine an omnipotent being, our limitations prevent us from fully grasping such a concept.

That's the problem with trying to define omnipotence, because we simply do not have any reference points to compare, (in fact, such reference points would be impossible).

All we can say is that an essential quality of God must be omnipotence.

Another quality of God is sufficiency, as he is totally self-sufficient. Therefore, God cannot merely be a creation of the mind of lesser beings, because such creation could not be God. We can grasp the merest portion, a list of qualities that ought to be attributed to God.

HongHu:

But most of the time he simply observes.

Would it surprise you if I said that without God, there would be nothing else? That God continually sustains life? If we are made in his image, a good analogy can be made with a mirror. What happens to the reflection in the mirror when the person walks away? The same is with God. If God were to walk away, we would simply cease to be.

[Zero]

Philosophy about God:

"God is Dead" signed Nietschze, on the bathroom wall.
"Nietxche is dead" signed furious God, on the bathroom wall.
"You're both dead" signed the angry janitor.

[Snowflake]

Hmmm, I think not. If he walks away after he made us, well we would still be here waiting for his return.

[Snowflake]

Originally posted by Zero
Philosophy about God:

"God is Dead" signed Nietschze, on the bathroom wall.
"Nietxche is dead" signed furious God, on the bathroom wall.
"You're both dead" signed the angry janitor.

[cinch]

The way I look at it is this:

If there is a "being" outside of our existence, outside of our universe... it ain't bound by the laws of said universe. It is, by definition, everything one has ever seen and nothing one could ever imagine at the same time, because these concepts of 'everything' and 'nothing' are simply states of being, or conceiving, in our universe.

Good, evil, happy sad... none of that factors into it. Anything outside of our existence is unknowable. If you follow most religions to their "end", if you will, that's usually what the message is.

So why alter your life in an uncomfortable way to attempt to please a "being" that no one can even conceive of, or know? That's just silly talk!

[Ben Kenobi]

If he walks away after he made us, well we would still be here waiting for his return.

Interesting. So do we need God in our lives at all?

[Whaleboy]

God, n, The justification for the penis

[The Emperor Fabulous]

I don't understand that whole "waiting for God's return" thing. I am a Christian, but that's a part that has escaped me. I mean, I personally feel God's presence, and believe I can talk to Him and sense Him in my surroundings. So why do I need to wait for His return? He's already here.




I think that's the first time I've posted this close to my personal relationship with God...I feel...strange...

[Kuciwalker]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
Our perceptions of God are always limited by our own understanding, thus while we can imagine an omnipotent being, our limitations prevent us from fully grasping such a concept.

That's the problem with trying to define omnipotence, because we simply do not have any reference points to compare, (in fact, such reference points would be impossible).

All we can say is that an essential quality of God must be omnipotence.

I call BS. Omnipotence is easily defined as the ability to define reality.