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  • Earn 12K US!

    From the front of www.msnbc.com/

    LAVIANO, Italy, Dec. 3 Christmas this year will be extra special for Antonietta Molinaro. Not only is she about to give birth but she’s also in line for a hefty baby bonus from the local mayor. Perched high in the Apennine hills southeast of Naples, Laviano is edging toward extinction as poor road links and a lack of jobs push the young away in search of a new life. Moreover, Italian women in general are least likely to have babies among European women, a trend that is alarming the government worried about its future pension and healthcare responsibilities.

    LAST YEAR THERE were just four new mothers in a population of 1,600. That compares with 70 babies born in 1970, when Laviano had around 3,000 residents.

    In a bid to reverse the trend, Mayor Rocco Falivena is digging deep into town coffers and offering couples 10,000 euros ($11,900) for every newborn baby.

    "It’s a lot of money, but this is our top priority," said Falivena. "We are talking about the very survival of our town."

    Laviano is not alone in its fight for life. Scores of towns the length of southern Italy are dying out.

    Between 1991 and 2001 the South had a net migration loss of more than half a million people, while the more prosperous northeast gained some 460,000, according to the latest Demotrends report from Italian demographic research body IRPPS.

    But wherever Italians may choose to live, the birth rate across the country is near rock bottom and the traditional stereotype of the Italian mamma and her squadrons of bambini could not be further from the truth.

    BIRTH DEARTH

    Most Italian women say they want at least two children, but on average have just 1.2, the August trends report said. That’s well below the 1.7 to 1.9 fertility rates of France, Britain and the United States.

    Giuseppe Gesano, Demotrends editor, blames inertia within Italian society to adapt to the increasing number of women who study and work.

    "The desire for children is still there, but because of practical and economic obstacles couples put it off until either it’s too late or they just have time for one child," he said.

    Unlike France and Britain, Italy has so far failed to foster a recovery of its fertility rate. Family allowances are minimal, day care costly and reconciling work and child raising hard to realize.

    IRPPS’s Antonio Golini also pointed to the failure of Italian men to take on an equal share of family tasks.

    "The most recent surveys have shown the importance of... a widespread counter-culture that considers children to be specifically the private good of women," he wrote.

    The end result: Italy has the oldest population in the world, and the government is all too aware of the financial burden that puts on the economy.

    Like Falivena, it is planning its own baby bonus aimed at jump-starting the national birth rate.

    The 2004 budget package includes a one-off 1,000 euros ($1,200) payment to Italians on the birth of their second child, a measure set to run from Dec. 1 until the end of 2004.

    Gesano said quick-fix solutions were not the answer to long-term demographic challenges.

    "Italians are not so poor that a one-off payment of 1,000 euros is going to make them have children ... It may convince a few hundred couples to have kids earlier than planned but it’s not going to radically change the birth rate," he said.

    Even with a consistent recovery of fertility in the coming years there would inevitably be a serious and growing gap between births and deaths.

    ECONOMY FEELS THE STRAIN

    The economic ramifications are clear.

    Italy’s pension system already swallows some 15 percent of gross domestic product, a figure set to grow with more than 21 percent of Italians aged 65 or over.

    The government has laid out pension reform proposals that envisage longer working lives, but it faces stiff opposition from unions which staged a general strike against the measures in October.

    Italian Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi says it is time for a change of mentality and for people in their 60s to realize they can’t stay at home and put their feet up, but should continue to work.

    By around the middle of this century Italy could reach a ratio of three to four deaths for every birth, the IRPPS estimates. Its data showed the population would have fallen already were it not for a steady influx of immigrants.

    In Laviano deaths have outstripped births for three of the last four years.

    Stark concrete apartments, built after an earthquake flattened the town in 1980, stand empty. The square is silent bar a group of elderly men chatting quietly.

    Falivena hopes his incentive will boost the population by around a quarter to some 2000, and has staggered payments over six years to deter anyone looking to make some quick cash.

    Molinaro is there to stay and, with not one but two babies on the way, set to double her money.

    "They’re two boys," she said. "A lovely surprise."
    Scouse Git (2) La Fayette Adam Smith Solomwi and Loinburger will not be forgotten.
    "Remember the night we broke the windows in this old house? This is what I wished for..."
    2015 APOLYTON FANTASY FOOTBALL CHAMPION!

  • #2
    This is a huge problem in Italy, especially. Much of Europe suffers from low birthrates, although in a slightly less acute fashion.

    Besides child subsidies (which seem like a reasonable way of increasing birth rates to me), the other option is to start allowing immigration en masse. I highly recommend this, but some European countries haven't been too hip on this idea.
    I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

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    • #3
      Indeed, a very big problem, esp. in italy. Fertility rate stands at 1.2 IIRC.

      Having community services help child bearing mothers is a very good solution. The other thing is working this on a psychological level, such as advertisments etc.

      DanS: bad idea.
      urgh.NSFW

      Comment


      • #4
        how about this idea

        the size of your pension is dependent on the number of kids you have

        like 1 kid = low pension
        2 kids = mid pension
        3 kids = high pension

        Jon Miller
        Jon Miller-
        I AM.CANADIAN
        GENERATION 35: The first time you see this, copy it into your sig on any forum and add 1 to the generation. Social experiment.

        Comment


        • #5
          Here's Italy's population pyramid in 25 years. Totally inverted. Brutal.
          Attached Files
          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by DanS
            Besides child subsidies (which seem like a reasonable way of increasing birth rates to me), the other option is to start allowing immigration en masse. I highly recommend this, but some European countries haven't been too hip on this idea.
            The EU get's 1m immigrants a year - roughly as many as the US (but only 2/3rds as much as a proportion of population)

            London, for example, gets more immigrants (relative to population) than New York or Los Angeles
            19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

            Comment


            • #7
              Re: Earn 12K US!

              Originally posted by Ben Kenobi

              Between 1991 and 2001 the South had a net migration loss of more than half a million people, while the more prosperous northeast gained some 460,000, according to the latest Demotrends report from Italian demographic research body IRPPS.
              500,000 started the migration but only 460,000 completed it.

              That's 40,000 Italians that died in the journey. How sad.

              Comment


              • #8
                Well, you have to admit that some European countries are much more resistant to immigration than others. The US immigration rate is 5 times that of France, for instance.

                Also, I think that 1 million immigrant figure for the US doesn't include the illegals in full measure, who are revised into the mix after the fact once every ten years.
                I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by DanS
                  Well, you have to admit that some European countries are much more resistant to immigration than others.
                  True, but this may be changing - just look at the rapid recovery of Spain's population growth, it rose by 0.9% between 1992 and 1997 but by 3.0% from 1997 to 2002.
                  It is possible that this is caused by migration from two sources - the 'normal' immigration from poorer countries and a 'florida effect' as rich Britions/Germans etc retire there.
                  This may be why Spains (and Greece's)population growth is much faster than expected but Britian's and Germany's is slower.

                  Originally posted by DanS
                  Also, I think that 1 million immigrant figure for the US doesn't include the illegals.
                  Well neither does the figure for the EU, your point is?
                  19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    I don't think immigration is Italy's problem. There's a good flux both ways; in and out.

                    I use to blame catholicism for increase pop rates, but Italy proved me wrong. The thing I remember seeing was that the reason Italy was shrinking in numbers was because of the strong family ties. The men live with their mothers as long as they can, sometimes until the mother dies and the man is too old to marry (or just doesn't). This creates no necessity for the men to find companionship, since they are all mama boy's (can't remember the actual word used). No companionship, except with their moms, means no kids.
                    Monkey!!!

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Well neither does the figure for the EU, your point is?
                      I think there are fewer illegals in the EU than in the US. I have more faith in your bureaucrats versus ours on that score. Y'all didn't find an extra 10 million people by accident, now did you?

                      But anyway, this isn't a discussion about the US, but rather an exploration of Italy's options on getting its demographic house in order. They can use a couple of different tools, one of which is increased immigration (although, as mentioned, Italy's immigration isn't so bad anyway).
                      I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Well, Greece found an extra 0.5m (5%) and Spain an extra 1m (2.5% - the same proportionate difference as US)
                        19th Century Liberal, 21st Century European

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          I DanSed you.
                          I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Re the snowbird effect, that's an interesting wrinkle. Presumably, Southern Italy is taking advantage of that. I guess the pensions are paid by the origin country.
                            I came upon a barroom full of bad Salon pictures in which men with hats on the backs of their heads were wolfing food from a counter. It was the institution of the "free lunch" I had struck. You paid for a drink and got as much as you wanted to eat. For something less than a rupee a day a man can feed himself sumptuously in San Francisco, even though he be a bankrupt. Remember this if ever you are stranded in these parts. ~ Rudyard Kipling, 1891

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Listened to a really interesting Radio4 article on this very issue yesterday.

                              Intelligent and entertaining conversation about business, money, technology and workplace issues, presented by Heather Payton.


                              Not only Italy, but Germany and France also seem to be having the problem, and the only reason the UK is not shrinking, is due to immigration.

                              You can actually listen to the radio article from this page, if your interested.
                              "Wherever wood floats, you will find the British" . Napoleon

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