CanPol Thread: the United Right etc.

[Garth Vader]

Originally posted by Tingkai


What happened to Asher?

He asked that his login be perma restricted. I don't know all the reasons, I just saw that much on another site.

[KrazyHorse]

Originally posted by notyoueither
As for the Constitution, at least he got Quebec to agree, unlike some other Constitutional moron I could name, but won't *cough* Trudeau *cough*

As I recall, the PQ was in power in Quebec in 1982, under Levesque, whereas in 1993 the Liberals were in power.

[notyoueither]

Yeah, trying to get the Constitution brought home while the people in Quebec City were sure not to sign it was a brilliant bit of timing, or maybe not.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
As to why it was bitter and divisive? It had unions, nationalists, and opponents of the Tories united in opposition. On his side, Mulroney had business, economists, and most Canadians as it turned out. However, the people who lost never forgot, nor forgave.

The majority of Canadians voted against Mulroney and his free trade deal.

The PCs had 43% of the vote, Liberals with 32% and the NDP with 20%. The Liberals and the NDP were both against NAFTA.

Opposition to the NAFTA came from many sources, not just "unions, nationalists and Tory opponents." Most economists I knew said they agreed with free trade in principle, but did not like NAFTA.

A major concern among several of my econ profs at the time was that Canada was putting all of tis eggs in one basket. Instead of diversifying our import and exports to other global regions, we were tying ourselves even more to the US economy.

[notyoueither]

Well then, it's a good thing the election wasn't fought on NAFTA then, isn't it? It was fought on the CA-US Free Trade Agreement.

You are correct that there was wide-spread opposition to it though. I tried to indicate some of the high lights and major groups. I believe you that many economists would not have been enthusiastic though. Factors other than profession had a major influence. It was ideological and very bitter, and it set the tone for Mulroney's second term.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by notyoueither
Well then, it's a good thing the election wasn't fought on NAFTA then, isn't it? It was fought on the CA-US Free Trade Agreement.

You're right. My mistake.

[cinch]

QUESTION: Will the UniCons (see, it's like unicorns... get it?... sorry) be more or less likely to bend over and let the Americans screw our citizens up the arse?

***********************************

U.S. won't change policy on deportations to third country: ambassador
Last Updated Thu, 04 Dec 2003 22:42:03
OTTAWA - The U.S. government will continue to deport Canadian citizens to third countries if they pose a risk to American national security, said Paul Cellucci, U.S. ambassador to Canada.

Cellucci made the comment after he spoke to a conference on Canada-U.S relations on Thursday.

He emphasized that the U.S respects the Canadian passport, but homeland security comes first.


Cellucci's comments came a week after Paul Martin, the incoming prime minister, pledged to further investigate the handling of Maher Arar, a Canadian citizen, who was deported to Syria rather than Canada by U.S. authorities in 2002.

"The president has no more solemn obligation than to protect the safety of the people of the United States," said Cellucci, and if that means acting unilaterally, so be it, he added.

Federal Solicitor General Wayne Easter downplayed the impact Cellucci's comments will have on Canada-U.S. relations, while Alex Neve, secretary general of Amnesty Canada said he found Cellucci's comments troubling.

"It contravenes international law and should, and can play, no part in any effort to increase security," said Neve. "If anything, (he) is fostering greater insecurity in the world."
*********************************************

http://www.cbc.ca/stories/2003/12/04...passport031204

[Ben Kenobi]

Great Right Hope: Tory-Alliance merger set to become reality Saturday
46 minutes ago

ALEXANDER PANETTA

OTTAWA (CP) - The Canadian Alliance and the Tories are set to tie the knot Saturday in a political wedding that would create a new Conservative Party of Canada to challenge the mighty Liberals.

The unite-the-right movement passed a big political test Friday and then a legal one, leaving the parties poised to strut down the aisle after a long and rocky courtship.

The former foes will unite under one banner in time for an expected spring election if Progressive Conservative delegates vote Saturday to accept the merger.

Alliance members voted 96 per cent in mail-in balloting to create the new party, Alliance Leader Stephen Harper announced Friday.

The merger then cleared a legal hurdle hours later when an Ontario Superior Court judge tossed out a challenge by Tories who opposed it - a blow to so-called Red Tories who see the Alliance as too right-wing.

Harper was already heralding a "new era in Canadian politics."

"Together, we will build a formidable conservative movement - one conservative voice from coast to coast to challenge the Martin-Chretien government and to put an end to a decade of waste, corruption and mismanagement."

The Alliance result was nearly uniform across the country, with members in every province voting at least 93 per cent in favour of uniting. About 53,000 ballots were cast.

The merger is an attempt to halt a decade of vote-splitting among conservatives that helped the Liberals cruise to three successive electoral triumphs.


Progressive Conservative Leader Peter MacKay said he expects his party to reach the two-thirds majority of votes needed to accept the deal.

"I am confident that a large majority of members of the Progressive Conservative party will accept that direction," MacKay said.

"I think the level of support is similar in both parties and I certainly hope the result will be very similar to the one we saw with the Canadian Alliance today."

The vast majority of Tory riding associations contacted in recent days said they have elected a full slate of eight pro-merger delegates for Saturday's vote. The Tories are using a delegate system rather than the Alliance's one-member, one-vote system.

Tory delegates at 26 sites across the country are to cast their votes in a "virtual convention" run from Ottawa. Final results are to be announced by mid-afternoon.

Harper offered a sneak preview of an attack theme that will be used against the Liberals. He said Canadians have no idea what Liberal Leader Paul Martin stands for and a strong opposition will force him to take a clear position on issues.

"I think what Paul Martin has had going for him is the ability to be a chameleon - to be anything to anybody.

"To conservatives he's a conservative, to socialists he's a leftist. And sooner or later he's going to get called on this."

Vote-splitting began in Conservative ranks after former prime minister Brian Mulroney's coast-to-coast coalition began crumbling during the bitter constitutional debates of the late 1980s and early 1990s.

Western-based staunch conservatives abandoned the Tories to throw their support behind the upstart Reform party, while Quebec nationalists flocked to the Bloc Quebecois.

Several subsequent attempts at re-uniting the parties have met with spectacular failure, including the process that led to the creation of the Alliance.

Members had attempted to merge the Reform party and the Tories for the 2000 election but the vast majority of Conservatives never came onside.

A main sticking point has been the ideological gulf between the Alliance and the more socially progressive Tories.

The Alliance was hobbled by perceptions it was too right-wing to lead the country and seen as hostile to Quebec nationalists and many Atlantic Canadians.

That has some Tories fearing the merger will fail if they, too, are tainted by such perceptions.

Many critics have questioned the logic of a united right, saying most Tory voters prefer the more moderate Liberals as their second choice instead of the Alliance.

That has some Red Tories predicting an exodus to the Liberals and yet another crushing landslide in the election anticipated next spring.

The latest polls suggested a united right-wing party could place third behind the NDP.

But Harper scoffed at those poll results and said things will change when the new party actually exists.

"Certainly (we're) still behind the Liberals but well ahead of any opposition force. And it'll will be the only party with strength across the country," Harper said.

Reform party founder Preston Manning said it's time to put differences aside.

"I think what people should focus on is the things they have in common . . . This is people saying, 'Look, we've got to stop the vote-splitting and work together."'

He said the parties agree on cutting spending and lowering taxes, and share similar foreign policy.

Thanks partly to a disjointed opposition, the Liberals have never trailed in the polls for a single day over the last 10 years.

In 2000, the Alliance managed to elect only two MPs east of Manitoba - both in Ontario - and the Liberals romped to another election victory, boosting their seat total to 172 from 155 in 1997.


Hoooyaaa!

96% in favour! My sources indicated maybe 80% but 96%

Even sweeter that Orchard lost his court challenge.

Now we just need those PCs to ratify the merger.

[notyoueither]

Reform party founder Preston Manning said it's time to put differences aside.

"I think what people should focus on is the things they have in common . . . This is people saying, 'Look, we've got to stop the vote-splitting and work together."'

It took him 12 years to realise this?

[Ben Kenobi]

When you start a party from scratch, you have other pressing concerns. He did offer to join the two parites earlier, but it is not until now that the desire has been requited.

[notyoueither]

I am specifically questioning the wisdom of starting that party, again.

I just hope the rank and file of the CA will realise that power will only be achieved by softening on some social issues, otherwise... one party rule, or possibly worse, the NDP being the second choice in Ontario.

[Tingkai]

Originally posted by Ben Kenobi
When you start a party from scratch, you have other pressing concerns. He did offer to join the two parites earlier, but it is not until now that the desire has been requited.

Yeah, his pressing concern was to replace the PCs, even if it meant the conservatives lost power and the Liberals reigned with a free hand for 10 years.

Not that I've got any complaints. Manning has been a great asset for the anti-PC crowd.

[Ben Kenobi]

Well, if the conservatives were not so obstinate under Joe Who, we could have seen a merger more than a year ago.

As for their position on social issues, we shall see what happens when they start formulating policy over the next few weeks. Just because there are many liberal parties, why should the Conservatives be carbon copies of the liberals? There are plenty of people who don't like the social policies of the liberals, and should have a voice in parliament.

[notyoueither]

Most people East of Manitoba are quite happy with the social policies of the Liberals... get the hint?

Also, it was not for the Tories to cave in. They represent Canadians, from coast to coast, who have differences with the extremes of the NDP and the sleeze of the Liberals, and who are not in the final stages of a temper tantrum that shut them out of any chance at power for 10 years.

Follow us, Luke. We will show you how to use the force.

[Ben Kenobi]

Let's talk turkey then.

Define progressive social values. Which ones would you be willing to live withiout in order to have a party with integrity?