Russia pulls out of Kyoto - What is the future of the Protocol?

[DanS]

I'm not aware of them here either, I'm convinced tho that america and russia supposedly have been hijacked by big mean corporations. For your information our democracy is a little more advanced than the 2 party police state you live in.

[MikeH]

Originally posted by rah
Just a question. Do other countries have regularly scheduled mandatory car emission tests like the US? Where if the car fails you must have it fixed or face a license suspension. Or is this just a US thing.

Yes, part of the standard yearly MOT in the UK, you don't get a license suspension but if a car fails it's MOT you can't legally drive it. Driving a car without MOT could lead you to license suspension/fine etc.

[Japher]

You blame greed? Are you both troglodytes or something, wishing we still in the dark ages? If anything blame technological advancements, but greed?

Do you not like living in a house compared to a cave, reading by electric lights instead of candles, having warmth to fight of the cold, being able to travel 1000s of miles within a day, amongst all the other countless luxuries you have?

It really sickens me when I see a "hippie" in manufactured clothes skimming a paper at a Starbucks just before they get in their car to go up to Wilits to protest, then head back to their manufactured home, flip on a light switch eat some soup from a can and turn in under the roar of an electric furnace...

The sight of the future is not in the hands of conservation, but in the trust of innovation.

[Jon Miller]

I think that other co9untries have been hijacked more than the US

not that the US isn't mostly controled by corps

it is just that we have at least the power to do something democratic about it

JOn Miller
(the reason I don't support violent revolution)

[ixnay]

It's a matter of prescience
No, not the science fiction kind
It's all about ignorance,
And greed, and miracles for the blind
The media parading disjointed politics
Founded on petrochemical plunder
And we're its hostages

If you stand to reason
You're in the game
The rules might be elusive
But our pieces are the same
And you know if one goes down we all go down as well
The balance is precarious as anyone can tell
This world's going to hell

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster to exact its price
Kyoto now!
We can't do nothing and think someone else will make it right

You might not think it matters now
But what if you are wrong
You might not think there's any wisdom in a f***ed up punk rock song
But the way it is
Cannot persist for long
A brutal sun is rising on a sick horizon

It's in the way
We live our lives
Exactly like the double-edge of a cold familiar knife
And supremacy weighs heavy on the day
It's never really what you own but what you threw away
And how much did you pay?

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster to exact its price
Kyoto now!
We can't do nothing and think someone else will make it right

In your dreams
You saw a steady state; a bounty for eternity
Silent screams
But now the wisdom that sustains us is in full retreat

Don't allow
This mythologic hopeful monster isn't worth the risk
Kyoto now!
We can't have vision for the future if it can't be fixed
Alien
We need a fresh and new religion to run our lives
Hand in hand
The arid torpor of inaction will be our demise

Oh, Kyoto now!

[aaglo]

Originally posted by Japher
You blame greed? Are you both troglodytes or something, wishing we still in the dark ages? If anything blame technological advancements, but greed?

Do you not like living in a house compared to a cave, reading by electric lights instead of candles, having warmth to fight of the cold, being able to travel 1000s of miles within a day, amongst all the other countless luxuries you have?

It really sickens me when I see a "hippie" in manufactured clothes skimming a paper at a Starbucks just before they get in their car to go up to Wilits to protest, then head back to their manufactured home, flip on a light switch eat some soup from a can and turn in under the roar of an electric furnace...

The sight of the future is not in the hands of conservation, but in the trust of innovation.

Answer to the point: Yes, greed.
The russian president's assistant said it clearly:"The Kyoto Protocol places significant limitations on the economic growth of Russia", the key word here being economic. Bush said the similar things when they (bush administration) decided, that USA will not sing that treaty.

Economic growth my ass. I'd rather have poor economy than poor atmosphere.

The other comments in your post (something about cavemen)... I will not lower myself to your level

[laurentius]

Originally posted by rah
A treaty is signed for one of two reasons only.
1. At gunpoint. (not the case here)
2. Or when all parties concerned believe it's in their best self interest.
It's the failure of the diplomats when they don't put forth an agreement that countries will sign, and more importantly, live up to afterwards. That was obviously the case with this treaty proving it was flawed.

I'm making no claims to right or wrong, just flawed. No unsigned treaty is worth anything.

Obviously its flawed because 2 of the biggest polluters in the world refused to ratify it.

Best intrest..ok lets think about this for a while. My thesis is that governments are here primarly to serve the people not the corporations. People are not fuelling the corporations but rather vice versa. Therefore a goverment that hasnt got this priority in order is flawed. That is if its legitimate or not. If its not it is up to the people to perform a regime change. I recommend the slogan "We, the people"

So what we have here is roughly two types of governments, those that got this legitimative priority in order, and those that dont. USA and Russia obviously dont.

[DanS]

I don't think Kyoto ever had the majority support of the people of the US. Because of this, it was never going to be ratified.

[rah]

Originally posted by laurentius
Obviously its flawed because 2 of the biggest polluters in the world refused to ratify it.

Now you've got it. Only a blind man would think that the US would ratify in it's current form. So the result is nada. True diplomats would have modified it to something that even the US would have signed. You might argue that a treaty that did that wouldn't really solve the problem, which I might have to agree with. (I'm one of those that believe that in it's current form it wouldn't solve the problem, but you have to start somewhere)

But it would have been better than a sharp stick in the eye.

Definately a diplomatic failure.

[laurentius]

Yes, but as the self-proclaimed model democracy the USA should give other, less democratic countries like Russia, an example on how to take responsibility for your own actions, including pollution.

[Solly]

..and let others take advantage Laurentius?

Oh yeah, just noticed your location..

[rah]

And what made kyoto the definative solution?

There are many pollution control initiatives currently happening in the US. The water and air is much cleaner than it was in the past in most places in the US. I agree that we could be doing more. But just because we don't agree with a treaty doesn't mean nothing is being done.

[laurentius]

Yeah but the point is that these are not just domestic issues. Winds blow the smog and emissions to other countries etc. This is why it is a global issue that demands global action.

The Kyoto wasnt as bad as the companies and media wants you to belive. It surely was not the definative solution either, but it would have been a step forward.

[Gatekeeper]

If the treaty had been really global in the first place — rather than targeting certain parts of the planet while letting other parts not be bound by it either now or in the future — it might have helped win support.

India and China, et al., don't quite account for a gigantic slice of the pollution pie chart just yet. In time, they will match and surpass the Western world, IMO, and the impression I had of Kyoto is that they wouldn't have been bound to its terms unless they signed on the dotted line. And what's to make them sign in the future? What impetus would there be? Good will on their part?

Gatekeeper

[Pekka]

I hoped US would have signed the Kyoto thing .. but it didn't happen so it didn't happen.

We didn't sign treaty banning landmines. I'm glad we didn't. I guess half of the countries think we are some kind of crazy war people then. Let them think that I couldn't care less, they are VITAL to our defense and if someone has troubles understanding it, they can go eat poop.

And it surely is global issue. But it doesn't mean we are blowing land mines all over the world as we speak. But we shouldn't sign the treaty either. It doesn't fit to us. We need to have the right to blow up 400 000 pair of legs if it comes down to that. It's our business and no one has anything to it.

Like in the US.. like I said, I wished they would have signed the treaty but they didn't. It's their business. It's global issue for sure, but it's not like they aren't doing anything about it.

Global treaty, nations own business.